3BV limits on Clone

[thefinerminer]

This is a summary of posts from the guestbook:

KAMIL:

hi all, Id like to tell u my opinion about 3bv limits here, because most of ppl dont read forum
My idea is to keep 3bv limits for records in the ranking but make it possible to play on next Clone version. 3bv limits are important in the ranking to make it more fair, but it would be great fun to get better times on them.
1. MSX is legit version and it doesnt use 3bv limits. I dont play on MSX because it doesnt have history file, but I like that it doesnt use 3bv limits.
If playing Clone with history file is legit and playing MSX with no 3bv limits is legit, y dont we mix these both versions? Or maybe next clone should have 2 options to choose?
a) Generate boards without 3bv limits and have history file.
b) Generate boards with 3bv limits and don't have history file.
2. It makes me angry and furios that Chinese players can play sub30 int boards and we cant. sub30 boards give amazing opportunitys to have good times.
3 Somebody wrote on forum that he wouldnt like to set a record and realize 3bv<30. Then Rodrigo could add option "Dont generate sub30 boards"
My idea doesnt interrupt the world ranking, so Damien cant complain. 3BV limits fans could use option "generate boards with 3bv limits". I really cant understand why anybody could complain that players who dont like 3bv limits are forced to use them.
I give the choice to others, but if u dont agree, my decission is: after getting a 9 on legit ms version, Im going to start playing int only on clone 0,97


RONNY:

I presonally don't want to get a record, only to find out later it's not allowed in the ranking. So if it's added, it should be optional at least.


KAMIL:

everybody agrees? bcoz Rodrigo is going to update clone 2009 this or next week repairing 3bv limits, so he could remove 3bv limits at all and add mentioned option


LUKE:

I agree with Ronny, I don't want to get a record and then find out it is not legit, I also really don't like your idea that the only way to have your games put into a history file is to play without legal 3bv limits.


ARYEH:

I'm glad Rodrigo is fixing the 3BV limits. I agree that 3BV limits should not be imposed in clones, or if they are, it should be optional. I'd like to point out (if nobody has mentioned this before) that having 3BV limits integrated into clones creates an illegal method of solving boards: one could, theoretically, solve a board using the added knowledge that the 3BV can be no higher than the limit. Yes, this would be quite impractical, but it still adds a component that wasn't present in the original game.


[name removed]:

there is NO NEED for what kamil demands. i strongly agree with ronny's point and i'd like to add that IMHO having games above and below the 3BV limits in the same stats tables is not a good idea: games below the 3BV limits won't count for rankings! why should they be saved in the stats? and why do you think that msx has to be banned then, kamil??? only those msx boards that are below the limit do not count. don't make things more complicated than they are. arj, as both clone and msx ae available to everyone you are free to play with or without 3BV limits ...and how could it be an advantage if you know that the 3Bv of the board you are playing will not be LOWER (not higher) that the limit? it is a difference to the original game, but not an advantage!


ARYEH:

@[name removed]: I think KAmil was being sarcastic. As for what I was saying before, 3BV limits *do* theoretically give an advantage because they give additional information about where mines are where the original game does not provide such information. It's not practical to use this advantage, but it's an advantage nonetheless over the original game. I do agree that Rodrigo must, at the very least, fix the 3BV limits from 3-31-100 to 2-30-99.


KAMIL:

@[name removed]: Ok, then he could add another option "dont record games under 3bv limits in history file" Ok, so if everybody agrees with my great amazing idea, Ill tell rodrigo about these 2 options and to remove 3bv limits. IMC decission: "Scores will be accepted for the Best Ever List only if achieved on boards with a minimum 3BV of 2 for beginner, 30 for intermediate and 99 for expert" According to this rule, I have RIGHT to play sub 3-31-100 3bv boards, they only just won't count in the world ranking. It's also obvious that I have RIGHT to use history file. As long as none of official versions provide me both rights, I give myself right to use Clone 0,97 to play Int of course if next clone decide not to generate all 3bv boards @[name removed]: btw, I dont understand y r u crying, in fact u use Arbiter


DAMIEN:

I really like the clone with 3bv limits. There is no point playing illegal games and saving them in the history file. It is nice to have a version where you can tell new players scores will always be accepted. Kamil does not like the fact 2 Chinese players have a 10...but both scores are banned from the world ranking. It is really unfair to let new players think they have a record, only to find it does not count. I did not know Clone does not make 3bv=2 and 3bv=30 boards (is this true?)...I think this is because Rodrigo is preventing a 3bv=2 board accidentally becoming a 3bv=1 board when a mine gets shifted. MSX does not have limits because it was made before limits were made (btw, you can save game stats in a txt file and export to excel). If you want to play illegal games, use cheat mode.

[RonnyDeWinter]

"I did not know Clone does not make 3bv=2 and 3bv=30 boards (is this true?)."

Yep true. That was one of the reasons I've played beginner on Arbiter to get my 1s. Also nobobdy ever got a 30 board on Clone. Whether Clone doesn't generate 99 or 100 3BV.....I haven't seen both, so it could even be 101 at the moment.

[EWQMinesweeper]

after a chat with kamil on facebook he and i came to the conclusion that there might have been a small misunderstanding in what kamil wanted and in what the rest thought he wanted.

14:[name removed]
yo

14:19Kamil
hi

14:19[name removed]
nobody forbids you to play clone 0.97 or msx

14:20Kamil
I want to have histoy file so I wont play on msx

and cl 0,97 doesnt count in the ranking

14:20[name removed]
so what?

14:20Kamil
but if next clone will keep 3bv limits, Ill play on 0,97

14:20[name removed]
fine

then u play 0.97 and everything#s ok

14:22Kamil
but if I accidently get a 9 on 30, it wont count

14:22[name removed]
it WILL count

rules do not say 0.97 is forbidden

14:23Kamil
they say

14:23[name removed]
it only says sub30 3BV is forbidden

14:23Kamil
I asked damien and its written

if it wasnt forbitten I wouldnt have done this mess on gb

14:24[name removed]
c'mon! noone can say anything against any score as long as the version does not give any advantage over winmine

and as long as the 3Bv is above the limits

14:25Kamil
:S

y did damien tell me that cl 0,97 doesnt count?

14:25[name removed]
i see that rule as a guideline

14:25Kamil
damn, u r right :O http://minesweeper.cc/index.php?page=decisions

14:26[name removed]
IMC is dead

14:26Kamil
they removed 0,96, but its not written 0,97

damn

ok, no problem now, but Ill have to change cl 2007 for exp and 0,97 for int all the time

and Ill have to start new history file

14:27[name removed]
i think damien will see it this way: he says people should only play clone 2007 so that they won't be dissapointed when they get a highscore and find out it was below the 3BV limits

14:27Kamil
if cl2009 had optional 3bv limits: yes or no, there would be less mess

??dont understand??

ok

but hey, thats y I told about these option

s

14:29[name removed]
if you really want such a feature you should write it to rod, BUT don't say that the whole community wants it (so far it's only you and arj - against damien, ronny and me)

14:30Kamil
rodrigo told me he will do what community wants

so I wanted to convice others

if they dont like my ideas, there will be options to turn off

either having sub30 boards and logging to history file

14:31[name removed]
damien's ronny's and my main point is that games below the 3BV limits should not be included in statistics with valid games

14:32Kamil
yes

but what is I want?

Ive never been asked to show my history file to anybody

history file is addition info for the user

al

thats y these 2 options

but I need overall agreement of community

14:33[name removed]
would you agree on this:

1. option to include/exclude boards below the limits

2. option to have stats with and without boards below the limits

14:34Kamil
but thats what Ive said :S

14:35[name removed]
2nd po0int was not so clear in what you wrote



14:35Kamil
y not?

ok so u agree about these options

14:36[name removed]
you wrote: next clone should have 2 options to choose?
a) Generate boards without 3bv limits and have history file.
b) Generate boards with 3bv limits and don't have history file

i agree on the 2 points as i wrote them

14:37Kamil
oh

but later I mentioned the same thing u posted



so what kamil really meant and on what i can agree (on which i think everyone else can agree too) is that it would be nice if the next clone had:

1. option to include/exclude boards below the limits

2. option to have stats with and without boards below the limits

[Tommy]

Actually I think that boards below 3bv limits are part of the game. Not allowing them for rankings just makes sure that nobody lucks out on an imba board. But I see no problem with allowing these boards in a history file. Filter them out, if you want to, and optionally allow users not to generate them/not save them in the history file. Although, as a purist, I should actually say that not generating <3bv limits boards creates an advantage, because the player has more time playing games that are useful for the ranking (Last paragraph only included so that joni can flame me no offense of course ).

I'd say that including the options doesn't matter if the default is "safe", e.g. by default, no sub3bvlimits boards.

What would also be interesting is configurable 3bv limits. We might change them in the future, especially beginner is worth a big discussion

[EWQMinesweeper]

as i posted in the gb i added a poll to this thread...

[Tommy]

Voted although I might add that I'm not gonna use the clone anyway until it stops using .NET, so to me it doesn't matter much anyway, except for the fact that this might become an standard for clones.

[LTsully]

While I don't really agree with 3bv limits in the first place as long as they exist on the rankings I think clones should be made to not generate illegal boards.
I liked Manu's GB post about being pretty sad to need to get better scores on baby boards.
if you want low 3bv boards play the old msx, or old arbiter.

[Tommy]

Well, some players want it, and I personally see no reason not to include it. If you don't want it don't use it Never even switch it on.

Old arbiter/clone/msx are all limited. If I want boards to be generated indiscriminately when I play normally, I can choose between that and a bunch of other features in the new clones. It's not like we're just talking a special case here (like msx skins for stuff like no numbers), we are talking something people might want to have when they are sweeping _as usual_.

[KamilSaper]

msx is not limited

[EWQMinesweeper]

@kamil: msx has eg no history file and not that many counters

[KamilSaper]

yes, but tommy mentioned 3bv limits

[Tommy]

When I wrote limited I meant "functionally limited".

[KamilSaper]

al the clones r limited, thats y I wanted next clone to connect all best things from other clones