Roman Gammel 42.68 on ViennaSweeper

Should these scores be allowed on the ranking?

Roman Gammel 42.68 on ViennaSweeper

Postby thefinerminer » Mon Dec 01, 2008 8:37 am

Roman scored a 42.68 at the Budapest 2007 tournament. The program used, ViennaSweeper, was not made 'official' until 2008. Should his score be accepted anyway?

Interesting information:

- Roman asked the IMC to accepted his score, but he later voted against accepting VS because "there are too many official versions".
- Roman already had a 43 as his record, and he made 49, 50, 52 and 53 at the tournament (he is a good player with a long, honest history)
- The video is .umf and can only be watched in a page on this website: http://www.minesweeper.cc/uploaded/budapest2007/ranking.php. The accepted version of VS makes .rmv videos.
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Re: Roman Gammel 42.68 on ViennaSweeper

Postby EWQMinesweeper » Mon Dec 01, 2008 2:43 pm

thefinerminer wrote:Roman scored a 42.68 at the Budapest 2007 tournament. The program used, ViennaSweeper, was not made 'official' until 2008. Should his score be accepted anyway?


my opinion is that in the case that he got his score on a version that fullfilled the same criteria the other clones do it should be accepted.


thefinerminer wrote:- Roman asked the IMC to accepted his score, but he later voted against accepting VS because "there are too many official versions".
- Roman already had a 43 as his record, and he made 49, 50, 52 and 53 at the tournament (he is a good player with a long, honest history)


it would be interesting to hear rogen's own opinion on this issue.


i would accept it... ;)
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Re: Roman Gammel 42.68 on ViennaSweeper

Postby RonnyDeWinter » Mon Dec 01, 2008 5:57 pm

I think it should be accepted. As far as I can remember Vienna sweeper was allowed at the time he the record. I don't mind if you take Vienna of the list of official versions for future records.
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Re: Roman Gammel 42.68 on ViennaSweeper

Postby arjadre » Mon Dec 01, 2008 10:44 pm

I see no reason not to accept it.
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Re: Roman Gammel 42.68 on ViennaSweeper

Postby Tommy » Mon Dec 01, 2008 11:05 pm

I think that there is another, more general problem here that needs to be adressed.

What happens to scores that were once accepted and are on the ranking, but where the player that acchieved the score asks for it to be removed?
I would say that players should be able to state that their scores should be removed from rankings.

@Ronny: It was not officially accepted then excepting for tournaments, but the IMC officially accepted the vsweep home edition a couple of months ago. Why should it be removed? I believe that it is the best clone out there, it doesnt have as much as clone/arb in terms of built-in statistics (although it also exports statistics as csv files that are incredibly easy to parse), but it uses a file format that is both secure and easily readable (You can take my word for that, I looked at the specs), it is incredibly fast, it stores video files efficiently (as zip file, which eliminates the overhead of having thousands of files for every single won game), it is small, it has time trial/10 beginner functionality...
I cant see for what reason vsweep should be disallowed.

And @damien, about
thefinerminer wrote:- Roman already had a 43 as his record, and he made 49, 50, 52 and 53 at the tournament (he is a good player with a long, honest history)


If we're really even talking about whether or not a score acchieved during a world championship with 40 other minesweepers in the room on computers nobody had access to previously and on a clone that wasnt released when the tournament took place, the attitude this community has vs cheating is disturbing.
the 42 was __definetly__ not a cheat highscore. Whether roman wants to embrace it as his personal best is his decision.
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Re: Roman Gammel 42.68 on ViennaSweeper

Postby EWQMinesweeper » Mon Dec 01, 2008 11:15 pm

Tommy wrote:I think that there is another, more general problem here that needs to be adressed.

What happens to scores that were once accepted and are on the ranking, but where the player that acchieved the score asks for it to be removed?
I would say that players should be able to state that their scores should be removed from rankings.


i completely agree

Tommy wrote:@Ronny: It was not officially accepted then excepting for tournaments, but the IMC officially accepted the vsweep home edition a couple of months ago. Why should it be removed? I believe that it is the best clone out there, it doesnt have as much as clone/arb in terms of built-in statistics (although it also exports statistics as csv files that are incredibly easy to parse), but it uses a file format that is both secure and easily readable (You can take my word for that, I looked at the specs), it is incredibly fast, it stores video files efficiently (as zip file, which eliminates the overhead of having thousands of files for every single won game), it is small, it has time trial/10 beginner functionality...
I cant see for what reason vsweep should be disallowed.


noone said that it shouldn't be allowed anymore...



Tommy wrote:And @damien, about
thefinerminer wrote:- Roman already had a 43 as his record, and he made 49, 50, 52 and 53 at the tournament (he is a good player with a long, honest history)


If we're really even talking about whether or not a score acchieved during a world championship with 40 other minesweepers in the room on computers nobody had access to previously and on a clone that wasnt released when the tournament took place, the attitude this community has vs cheating is disturbing.
the 42 was __definetly__ not a cheat highscore. Whether roman wants to embrace it as his personal best is his decision.
[/quote]


i suppose damien wrote this part to make it understandable for people who are not that familar with the minesweeper community as we here are. as you wrote rogen should make the final decision in this case.


...but can someone explain to me why he shouldn't want to clam this score?
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Re: Roman Gammel 42.68 on ViennaSweeper

Postby Tommy » Mon Dec 01, 2008 11:21 pm

I was referring to
RonnyDeWinter wrote: I don't mind if you take Vienna of the list of official versions for future records.


As far as I recall, rogen said that vsweep was too fast and provided too much of an advantage.
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Re: Roman Gammel 42.68 on ViennaSweeper

Postby EWQMinesweeper » Mon Dec 01, 2008 11:30 pm

hahaha, i'm sure he didn't mean it that way...

vsweep provides no upk in normal mode, timer isn't slower than in the other clones...etc

to me this would be as much of a reason to not claim the score as gergö saying that his sub70 was too mcuh luck to claim it...i would like to see him claiming the 42 but in the end it stays his own decision.
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Re: Roman Gammel 42.68 on ViennaSweeper

Postby KamilSaper » Tue Dec 02, 2008 11:22 am

Just to point it out - rules are made to advice, not to do exactly what they say. I believe that rules connected to version are good, but only have no problems with cheat-versions. Rogen made 42 and we know he didnt cheat, so we should accept it despite it was made on inofficial version :P
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Re: Roman Gammel 42.68 on ViennaSweeper

Postby thefinerminer » Thu Dec 04, 2008 11:18 am

Btw, I accept Rogen's score is valid...to put it on the ranking I would prefer it is changed from .umf to .rmv so people can download and watch it.

Maybe Rogen or someone on good terms can ask Christoph if this is possible?
Or would a video of the the umf video (in the webpage at ms.cc) be good enough?

When Rogen made the score at the tournament I had a fear that ViennaSweeper has an unfair time advantage (it opens squares a bit faster, and everyone at the tournament made their best ever tournament results). In the last year there has been no evidence to support this fear.
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Re: Roman Gammel 42.68 on ViennaSweeper

Postby Rogen » Thu Dec 04, 2008 1:38 pm

Tommy wrote:As far as I recall, rogen said that vsweep was too fast and provided too much of an advantage.

Yes, I really said that. ViennaSweeper reveals squares faster than clone and gives some advantage for its users. I was against acceptance of ViennaSweeper for world ranking and still don't recommend it (as well as Arbiter) for russian minesweeper players.

That good game was made mostly because of 2 factors - luck (extremely easy board) and championship (you have better concentration and can finish some of those "fast games"). ViennaSweeper maybe helped to get better average scores for the tournament. At this moment I don't care about its including to world ranking, its enough for me that it was included to tournament ranking and put me on top :mrgreen:
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Re: Roman Gammel 42.68 on ViennaSweeper

Postby KamilSaper » Sat Dec 06, 2008 3:40 pm

@Damien: so if Rogen doesnt care about it in world ranking, just update it :D its will make top10 more fair (its well deserved 42)
0.49 - 7.03 - 31.13
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Re: Roman Gammel 42.68 on ViennaSweeper

Postby Tommy » Tue Dec 09, 2008 8:25 pm

I personally dont understand what is supposed to be wrong with the 42 - luck is an important part of the game, and I dont see a problem with being able to concentrate better either. I think most highscores are acchieved by players that manage to concentrate well at the moment.

I dont understand why the advantage that viennasweeper gives is supposed to be unfair. It is simply better (or lets say it more neutrally, more performant) equipment. And I guess that the advantage you get from using vsweep is ten times smaller than that from a good mouse, a faster computer...
Run vienna on a 10-year-old computer and it will most probably be slower than winmine/clone today.
Winmine/clone on a machine in ten years will be faster than viennasweeper is now.

Although there is a time delay, that delay is not meant to be there. It is a consequence of the fact that computers need time to do stuff, such as recieving mouse events, calculating how they affect the field, and drawing something new on the screen.
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Postby Janis » Wed Dec 10, 2008 10:29 pm

Tommy wrote:Run vienna on a 10-year-old computer and it will most probably be slower than winmine/clone today.
Winmine/clone on a machine in ten years will be faster than viennasweeper is now.


my comp is 10 years old... :(
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Re: Roman Gammel 42.68 on ViennaSweeper

Postby joni » Sun Dec 21, 2008 9:19 am

Tommy wrote:@Ronny: It was not officially accepted then excepting for tournaments, but the IMC officially accepted the vsweep home edition a couple of months ago. Why should it be removed? I believe that it is the best clone out there, it doesnt have as much as clone/arb in terms of built-in statistics (although it also exports statistics as csv files that are incredibly easy to parse), but it uses a file format that is both secure and easily readable (You can take my word for that, I looked at the specs), it is incredibly fast, it stores video files efficiently (as zip file, which eliminates the overhead of having thousands of files for every single won game), it is small, it has time trial/10 beginner functionality...
I cant see for what reason vsweep should be disallowed.


I just want to make a clarification. Christoph was smart enough to think about this kind of situation before he actually used ViennaSweeper as a clone at his tournament, so he made sure that the IMC discussed it and in the end passed a decision approving the fact that if a record was made during the tournament (on this new clone), it would be fully valid. Thus the IMC gave ViennaSweeper this special status "official during tournaments unofficial otherwise" a few days before Vienna 2006.
At Vienna 2006 nobody made any comments on this perceived advantage and many people were dissappointed with their times. There was one personal record that was broken, and this was by Gergely, who got a slightly better 18 that the one he already had in intermediate. Christoph was very happy someone had broken his record on Vienna sweeper and nobody had anything against it (Note: at the time we had a purely integer ranking, so the improvement didn't actually have any impact on the ranking itself). ViennaSweeper was used again in Budapest 2007, with no changes whatsoever to its gaming engine according to Christoph, but here suddenly everyone felt it was fast and Rogen got his expert record along with Bertie.

I'm no lawyer, but if one strictly follows the rules, there is no doubt those records are and have always been valid :!:

Rogen was on top of the world when he got that 42 :lol: so he didn't have anything against the game as such. His and other people's concern when it came to including the score to the world ranking was that it would have been unfair, because nobody had access to this clone, and nobody would have had the chance to play on it until the next tournament (which was to be about one and a half years later). Nowadays everyone can download and use Vienna, and it is a fully accepted version, so I don't think there can be any longer doubts on what to with those scores (Bertie broke his record a couple of weeks after the tournament on the Clone).
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