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Viewing Page 6 of 27 (Total Entries: 2685)
Sep 30th 2008 at 11:44:13 PM
Name:  

Gergő

Comments:  

@Gergely: You said that it is not fair. I say that this is very very....very unfair... Just imagine. Somebody comes with his/her flags and gets a lucky expert board, solves the first expert board even in 150 second and wins the competition, as a WR-ed player comes and blasts two expert boards in their middles on 50-50s, and solves the next expert board in let's say 50 seconds, and he looses... I suggest that the times sum of solved (5 + 3 + 1) boards should count (even if it is harder to figure out). If we use MS Clone and save all results, or simply we check the statistics (erased before the time trial) we can easily find the best player. Just set the saved data to the format time-level-Name and if you order the saved files by file name you can easily sum these results. And similarly to Vienna Competition, there can be a possibility if you solve the preset number of boards, you can play anything to improve your sum. And maybe that 8 minutes can be 10... It is not such a great time but gives a lot of additional possibilities. I think, in this suggested format the spectacularity does not reduce at all, and what's more, if every player's results are projected on a layer, spectators can check the results by themselves, as well. What do you (and the other players) think about these?
@all: I made two sup 80s yesterday, as well. With monday's 4 sub 80s (I wrote on monday the 3 ones incorrectly) I made 6 sub 80s in 2 days. I have already 16 sub 80s on Clone, three on Vienna Sweeper (on the competition), one on Arbiter and one on MSX... I seem to improve since Vienna, as I broke twice my IOE record. I became more effective maybe...

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Sep 30th 2008 at 10:28:17 PM
Name:  

joni

Comments:  

we have discussed Diego's vids in the past in the IRC channel... if you look at his exp vid it totally blows you away with his combinations of either brilliant or totally incompetent solving and absurd unforced guesses that just happen to be where there are openings... if is one of the few cases even Elmar and myself agree that there is nothing else you can call that but a cheat... Now that Rodrigo looks to have become a bit more active here, and since he can see things we can't, I hope he finds a good explanation for that... because if it actually is an UPK it means his latest clone release was cracked...

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Sep 30th 2008 at 03:01:34 PM
Name:  

Ronny

Comments:  

*0,9 = 0,09s response time!

   
Sep 30th 2008 at 02:59:25 PM
Name:  

Ronny

Comments:  

@Kamil: Normally I would discard all claims of you starting with 'obvious cheat', because you probably called me that over a thousand times in our BHD past. .

But after watching the vids of Diego 8,9 vid about 10 times in super slow motion and looking at this starting moves (also on his other vid), he should definitely be disqualified for making 2 false starts.

It's simply impossible to make an openings click, move the next square and flag it as well in just 0,100s....but Diego does, which is considered to be humanly impossible even for the best trained person in the world. It simple takes longer than that for the brain to see something, process it and create a coordinated movement as result of it.

I've seen various response time tests on the internet and nobody seems to be quicker than ~0,140s...even when people only have to click a.s.a.p. when they see on a signal. (so without moving the mouse!!)

Considering that Diego even moves and clicks in just 0,100 and his 3rd click in just 0,900 response time proofs to me was playing UPK.

(I don't about the cowman vid, but 4 3BV is just luck to me).

   
Sep 30th 2008 at 01:57:29 PM
Name:  

KAmil

Comments:  

@Damien:
1. Diego's both vids and Thy Cowmans 7,05 are obviously cheats.
2. I remember that Jake told me once that he made sup7 on 7 3bv in 1s, but there is no evidence and not enough 3bv so dont care about it
3. Ive made 7,637 (30March200 and 7,882 (02April200 FL 3BV/s on beg
btw, u forgot about my 7,27 NF to put in World records section and u still didnt write any News about my 4 WRs, sup4 on exp, 5,805FL on int, and tournament
and there are still 2 mistakes in News: my sup16 NF sum should be 7,14-5,214-3,74 and it should be written that Shao made a 10 on sub30 3bv board
@Gergely: "10 minutes to produce one good result on intermediate." thats enough to get sub14 btw, how long do u think all the tournament will be?

   
Sep 30th 2008 at 01:16:57 PM
Name:  

joni

Comments:  

Hungarian Open sounds soooo cool Gergely You're somehow always a step ahead Best of luck with the organization!!

   
Sep 30th 2008 at 01:09:06 PM
Name:  

joni

Comments:  

I'm sure Thy_cowmans 4 3BV game was played in the summer of 2006, even preceeding tam's record, although he made a point of it from the beginning it wouldn't have been fair to consider it a record...
That said, If one were to follow the rulebook -- that sais games with 4 3BV and up count for 3BV/s (though i can't remember who said that) -- the job of keeping track of the beginner record would be extremely easy :D (no need to bother oneself with all of KAmil's games that is ) that bizarre 9.52 3BV/s is quite fitting if you ask me: a not so meaningful record for a not so meaningful level .
If you want to discard that... then good luck Damien , i can already see the pile of correcting KAmil posts building up

   
Sep 30th 2008 at 12:54:36 PM
Name:  

Ronny

Comments:  

@Damien: About beginner flag...that 8,9 of Diego looks valid enough to me.

About NF, no evidence and a lucky 4 3BV are definitely not good enough for a WR in my point of view. I believe we had a discussion about minimum 3BV for a WR 3BVs on the guestbook a while ago and I believe the lowest limit I heard back then was 8 or 9, but most were talking about a 10-13 3BV minimum. So the current fastest would be 7,273 of KAmil made on September 28 (which isn't listed yet on the world record history)

   
Sep 30th 2008 at 12:31:56 PM
Name:  

fritz

Best intermediate:  

14,55

Comments:  

/me blasted int game --> Time: 14,31 «» Est. Time: 14,76 «» 3BV: 30 (31) «» 3BV/s: 2,25 «» Ranks: 0 / 0 of 4380 / 0% «» RQP: 0 ~_~

last square was right beneath where i clicked - always remember: first move the cursor to where you wanna click before you actually release the mouse button.....
probably my 3rd worst int blast ever - other2 are est12 and est13 lost on own mistakes

@gergely: can you give some more details on the location - i've been searching for "budapest game show" with google but didn't find anything for oct. 25

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Sep 30th 2008 at 12:19:36 PM
Name:  

damien

Comments:  

Website Updated - except for scores and news from the tournament.

About Beginner 3bv/s records for FL and NF: it is time to make these correct. I am sure many people have broken the old 7,57 FL but did not send me videos. (Look at the 'World Records' page to see what we have so far).

Possible NF records: Harryck Repse had a NF 6,00 3bv/s on beginner (can't find video) sometime in 2007. Then he made NF 9,52 on a 4 in 1.41s (very lucky on 2007.08.08) and a NF 7,05 on a 12 (2007.08.20). These videos are in his folder. Jake Warner claimed to have a 7,xx but never sent a video to anyone back in Sep2007.

Possible FL records: Tian Yi Fang has a 7,68 (2008.02.09) that is definitely legit. Jake Warner claimed a 8,xx in Aug2007 but gave no evidence. Diego Vizia claimed a 7,937 (9 3bv) and a 8,991 (23 3bv) both made in Aug2007. Videos are in his folder. I am sure Manu and others have broken Tam's old 7.57.....it would be nice to have the correct history.

   
Sep 30th 2008 at 11:52:25 AM
Name:  

Gergely

Comments:  

Hey Guys, it is Hungarian Open now So everyone's welcome hereon 25th October!
but...
In exchange for the opportunity given to us, I have to give an opportunity for every person who comes to visit our stand there, meaning it will be a quite simple tournament. The rules will not be fair, it will only be an exhibition tournament. Everyone can participate in the qualification session in a hot seat system, where you only have 10 minutes to produce one good result on intermediate. Only the best 8 player qualifies for the playoffs, where there will be a head-to-head time trial much like last year in Vienna. Players will have to finish 5 beg, 3 int and 1 exp game in 8 minutes. First to finish these games wins one set and the first to win 2 sets advances to the next round.
I know it's not fair, but fast and spectacular
See You around!

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Sep 30th 2008 at 10:58:41 AM
Name:  

KAmil

Best beginner:  

1x27 -> 1x28

Comments:  

Arbiter: 1,54 on 2 ( 2 of 5 my 1s beginner games on arbiter are made on 2 3bv, and I have 1x23 on CLone, so if it generated also 2 3bv boards I would have something like 1x15 more on 2 3bv boards )
Arbiter: 7,03 3BV/s on 18 and 7,04 3BV/s on 26
2 sup7 today, 5 sup7 in last 4 days

   
Sep 30th 2008 at 05:01:13 AM
Name:  

Gergö

Comments:  

@James: You do not even think that many of players on this site had some years before the similar records you already have. Your 97 is a great thing mentally. If you play more seriously, you will improve several seconds in months. I think, if you download some great players' videos in the Player Videos link, you may see in what parts you should improve (I mean consistency, flagging strategy, etc.). For me this magic barrier was the 80 s on expert and 20 s on intermediate. Every second improvement depends on how much time you practice. Come on!

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Sep 30th 2008 at 03:25:50 AM
Name:  

James Wood

Best expert:  

97

Best intermediate:  

34

Best beginner:  

3

Comments:  

Just broke the 99 on expert, not much of an achievement it seems when I look at all the best times on this site but something I've been wanting to break for a while now

   
Sep 29th 2008 at 11:46:19 PM
Name:  

GergA?

Comments:  

Yesterday was a great day for me on exp NF. I made 3x sub 80 (I have ~12 on Clone), several sup 2s, ~3-4 sup 2,1 and 2x sup 2,2. In 3,5 hours. I solved about 15-16 boards and blasted several est sub 80s, sup 2,1s and some sup 2,5-2,6s in their middles. I hope, sooner or later a sub 70 will come...

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Sep 29th 2008 at 03:53:10 PM
Name:  

damien

Comments:  

I will update the ranking tomorrow when I get home from work. This week two new Korean players found the site (Kim Ha-Neul 3-14-58 and Jo Jung Hwan 4-20-58) ... both of them downloaded Arbiter and these are their first videos. I think we will hear more from S. Korea soon ...

   
Sep 29th 2008 at 02:53:32 PM
Name:  

Ronny

Comments:  

@Joni: I'm good at finding ways to reproduce a bugs (and good at breaking things), so maybe I can help out. Could you tell me what you do to 'fix' the problem when the videos don't work anymore to push me in the right direction?

   
Sep 29th 2008 at 10:28:45 AM
Name:  

joni

Comments:  

kamil: If I knew what was wrong i would fix it :P.. the thing is i don't even have the time to figure it out and I thought the folders thing (that was added by me) was more likely to have a bug then the original script (which is an open-source one). It isn't that fun to chase a bug that shows up once every couple of weeks either... though now it seems to have become more frequent.

did you really win 11 games against tommy?? respect!

   
Sep 29th 2008 at 09:42:49 AM
Name:  

KAmil

Comments:  

@joni: Ive renamed my folder names, but vids broke down again Maybe its just a coincidence, but last time vids break down after I put a link on guestbook
btw, today Tommy pwned me on minesweeperlive (20-11 on exp) because I suck

   
Sep 28th 2008 at 10:16:14 AM
Name:  

Ronny

Comments:  

@Kamil: LMAO congrats....can you please give Damien a little break now and stop playing beginner.

BTW, of all your record current records, your NF beginner records will probably be broken last by someone else. So think it's time for you to play some more int and expert.....because those records are much more likely to be broken by others.

   
Sep 28th 2008 at 08:10:51 AM
Name:  

KAmil

Best beginner:  

NF 7,254 -> 7,273

Comments:  

Sorry Damien
12 3BV in 2,65, linked

    Website Website    
Sep 28th 2008 at 06:17:18 AM
Name:  

KAmil

Comments:  

@Damien: all the vids with dates are in my folder, I will only remind u which ones were records:
Beg NF 6,965 WR
Beg NF 7,143 WR
Beg NF 7,254 WR
Exp NF 3,743 WR
Int FL 5,805 (2nd best in world)
Exp FL sup4
And correct 3,727 to 3,74 in News about sup16 NF sum
U always write a News about tournaments, so I guess u will do it this time too, so dont forget to write that I made the 1st tournament sub50 NF and sub13

   
Sep 27th 2008 at 06:28:03 PM
Name:  

Ronny

Comments:  

@KAmil: Holy ****, that's by far the most insanely fast beginner board I've ever seen. If it hadn't been from you, I probably wouldn't have believed it! (Lol, and I know for sure you wouldn't have believed it, it is hadn't been your board either. )

(BTW, it's best to also email new WR's to Damien, because with the type of discussions we've had on the guestbook over the last weeks, the record posts easily drop 3 pages within a week. )

@Damien: Maybe you should tell KAmil not to break more than one WR in 1 week to give you a little break.

   
Sep 27th 2008 at 12:23:09 PM
Name:  

KAmil

Best beginner:  

NF 7,14 -> 7,253

Comments:  

Arbiter: 14 3BV in 2,93, perfectly played linked
@Damien: do u remember all 6 news about my records what u should write or do u want me to remind?

    Website Website    
Sep 26th 2008 at 02:01:50 PM
Name:  

fritz

Comments:  

@gergely:

same question as kamil: will it be an international competition or for hungarian players only?
if everyone can come i'd like to come too - i already told my dad about the tournament and he'd come with me (tho i'm sure he's more interested in sightseeing in budapest then actually in the tournament )

   
Sep 26th 2008 at 01:44:03 PM
Name:  

KAmil

Comments:  

Arbiter: 5,032 NF 3bvs on 71 board 3rd sup5 NF

   
Sep 26th 2008 at 12:00:18 PM
Name:  

tK

Comments:  

Holy **** gergely, Nice!!!
But shorter time trials 1 on 1 sounds bad to me , unless that means best of at least 3, preferably 5 or 7. And if you have to do only one, at least exclude expert. Even if that sucks, it sucks less than the randomness exp induces otherwise.
It would be great if you explained the system as soon as you know it.

I hope I will be able to come, I don't know how delighted my parents will be with my missing school then if I do, and I'm not quite 18 yet. (Provided that foreigners can compete, I'd understand if you didn't want that given that in a 1 on 1 system that would affect the tournament significantly)

rant

I would like to say that I hate this guestbook. Not the comments but the technology around it. I installed a new OS a couple of days ago and didn't get around to installing flash until now (OK, so lazyness was a factor, but that doesn't matter), so I couldn't even read what people wrote from my laptop.
Nothing against flash. But this is a f.ucking guestbook. A guestbook displays text and a couple of images. A guestbook is not a multimedia application. A guestbook should not depend on flash.

/rant

about the tournament system:
I have to say that I really liked the system (anyone surprised? ) and that I would like to play a system like that again.
I think that it could be a little bit longer, maybe 20 min/3 exp so that exp luck balances out a little bit more, or even 30/5 exp.
that way, also, you get a much longer shot at playing fast if you finish your exp quickly. I found that I had difficulties switching from consistency style to speed style, and I think that the trials as we had them didn't leave enough time after the end of the trials to really adapt to playing fast.

@Ronny and tourny system complexity, I think that it would have been possible to explain the rules clearly enough. Although I remember giving christoph the feedback that I found that the rules were explained clearly, adding that I didn't know how reliable my judgement was because I'm (almost) a native speaker and because I had played the format before. Maybe an additional example would have been enough, with an explanation for why people got the points they got.
Anyway, for next time, we have this tournys stats for demonstration.

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Sep 26th 2008 at 10:31:17 AM
Name:  

KAmil

Comments:  

@Gergely: will this tournament be only for Hungarian ppl?
@Christoph: I cant download ANY of my vids from my profile on minesweeper.cc , can u check what happened?
@joni: is the problem only because of folder names or it can be by something another?

   
Sep 26th 2008 at 09:28:03 AM
Name:  

joni

Comments:  

videos are back again ... I knew I should have never listened to elmar's suggestion to implement folders... the b.astard didn't even use them!!! I don't know what is the cause of the problems... and I don't have the time to figure out, but I will ask everybody to please, please, have short folder names preferrably with alphanumeric characters only... and please do not change them day in and day out...
Example: "Best 3BVs scores (7,882-5,805-4,029 , NF: 7,143-5,214-3,727)" is a typical BAAAAAAD name (KAmil has probably broken one of those records as I'm writing and the folder might have changed name already!), while Damien's "3bvs" is a typical good name Thank you!

@Johnny: i look forward to meet you in 2009 then =)... btw I want to see pics!! especially Curling pics

   
Sep 26th 2008 at 06:01:08 AM
Name:  

Johnny

Comments:  

@all 2008 Vienna players,
I wanted to thank you all for letting me come to Vienna and shoot the documentary. I hope that we weren't too intrusive. I am very excited to see what we got. I have about 20 hours of video, 15 minutes of film, and 900 photographs to sift through. I shall do my best to make something we can all be proud of. Please let me know if you have any questions, comments, or suggestions about the project. I am very open, and I think this is going to turn out great.

It really was an amazing experience for me. You are a great community of people and I truly hope that we captured at least some of the essence of what you are all about. I am only sad that the camera did not capture everything that my eyes and ears saw/heard, because all of you are very interesting and genuine people, and the actual tournament was very exciting and I hope I can edit it to show this.

I will try to post some highlight footage of the Vienna tournament online before the October 25th tournament, and I will send Gergely a DVD of the highlights as well for viewing at the actual tournament.

@Christoph and Eva,
Thanks for all your hard work at setting up the tournament as well as putting up with all the cameras and interviews. Curling was a blast, and I am glad no one got (too) hurt. You are truly an inspiration!

@Gergely,
Thank you for the e-mail about the invite to Budapest, however my funds are getting low and my vacation days even lower (read: none). I may be able to get a grant for 2009 and I would love to come shoot another event next year, so keep me posted on any events in 2009.

Ok, I guess I have to go set up a facebook account now. I hope to see you all at some point in 2009. very hopefully.

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Sep 26th 2008 at 05:13:09 AM
Name:  

KAmil

Comments:  

Arbiter: 2,97 FL on 13 has anobody elso has 2 on sup12?

   
Sep 26th 2008 at 04:30:49 AM
Name:  

Gergely

Comments:  

@Damien: don't want to disappoint you, but this Hungarian Championship is in 2008 Next year's date is still up in the air...

   
Sep 26th 2008 at 04:09:11 AM
Name:  

KAmil

Comments:  

@damien: I always record during-game vid with camtasia to have a vid with pop-up window When I watch mvf vid, its boring, and when I see the pop-up window, I feel like getting the record again for example I can get my 1st sub50 many times

   
Sep 26th 2008 at 03:10:47 AM
Name:  

damien

Comments:  

aryeh: nice! don't retire...

gergely: well done. my university holiday next year is 24-30 October....

kamil: est 40 is ok if it is >40.34 why do you play with camtasia? i hope it doesn't slow your computer - if you want to youtube, you can always record your arbiter/clone video after.

   
Sep 26th 2008 at 02:07:14 AM
Name:  

Arsen

Comments:  

@all Vienna participants: thanks everyone once again, it was a great championship even despite some problems))
@Gergely: Just from Budapest yesterday )) I would be interested to see the championship online if it will be transmitted..

   
Sep 26th 2008 at 12:30:27 AM
Name:  

Gergely

Comments:  

Hey everyone! Just had a meeting with microsoft and we agreed that the upcoming Hungarian Championship will be held at the Budapest Game Show on 25th October. Its rules will be simple with a qualification phase open for everyone and an 8-player playoff with a shortened time trial. Will keep you informed...

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Sep 25th 2008 at 05:33:28 PM
Name:  

Arjadre

Best expert:  

51.895

Best intermediate:  

12.997-----------> 12.951

Best beginner:  

1.16

Comments:  

Whoo... I broke my record by .046 seconds.

My first record since March... my first int record in over 11 months!
12.951 on a 33 3BV board at 2.761 3BV/s and 4.690 RQP.

I'm incredibly excited right now.

Congrats @ everyone who competed in Vienna

Finally, if there are any other minesweeper players at Dartmouth College, I want to know about it! (blitz arjadre)

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Sep 25th 2008 at 04:09:44 PM
Name:  

fritz

Comments:  

@gergely: you found a very nice game there

@joni: vids is do´wn again. can you please fix it?

@kamil:.........speechless.............grats......

@squaro players: 5*5 medium: 9=>8s; 7*7 hard: 22=>18s - now the sum of my single best times on all squaro levels is 93s

   
Sep 25th 2008 at 03:57:13 PM
Name:  

reid

Comments:  

got home yesterday. very long trip, but very fun. nice to see some of the people that i met in Budapest and to meet some new ones. thanks to Christoph and Eva for all of the work that they put in to organizing the event and for taking us curling(definitely a sport that you can't understand how hard it is until you try it). also, after the problems with the viennasweeper software, it was great of Gergely and Arsen for organizing all of the tournament information during the breaks.
my sister, Sam, and i will create and update a Facebook page that will keep people informed on the progress of the documentary. so, once we get that started, we will post the name of the page on the guestbook and anyone can add it as a friend.
well, i had a great time and i hope to see all of you again.

   
Sep 25th 2008 at 03:54:09 PM
Name:  

manuel h

Comments:  

@ ronny

i have the same problem, and i asked rilian, but he doesnt know why this is happening :/
looks like we have to live with it -.-

mfg
manu

   
Sep 25th 2008 at 02:45:33 PM
Name:  

Michael

Comments:  

@Joni - I know your post was in good humour, but I wasn't being sarcastic. It was an honest question about the word 'crush'. At first I assumed it was a typo, but I know nothing about computers, so it could have been correct, which is why I asked.

As always, people are speaking marvellous English, keep up the good work.

   
Sep 25th 2008 at 02:38:25 PM
Name:  

Gergely

Comments:  

http://www.kongregate.com/games/raitendo/doeo - an interesting little game that tests your reaction and mouse speed. It gets real ugly on hard level

    Website Website    
Sep 25th 2008 at 11:52:40 AM
Name:  

KAmil

Best expert:  

3,797 -> 4,029

Comments:  

Arbiter: 194 in 49,15 I had to improve my exp 3bv record, 3,797 was funny next to 5,805 o int And I played it @ home, so I have the vid with pop-up window from camtasia
linked

    Website Website    
Sep 25th 2008 at 11:12:07 AM
Name:  

Ronny

Comments:  

I tried watching that arbiter vid by downloading the 0.46 version, but when Arbiter runs a board it takes 99% processor time while playing or while watching a vid. Anyone know how i can fix this?

   
Sep 25th 2008 at 10:00:35 AM
Name:  

KAmil

Comments:  

my 115/117 est 40 linked
@Jon S: try to click faster and play on Arbiter its faster than Clone.

    Website Website    
Sep 25th 2008 at 09:48:19 AM
Name:  

Jon S

Comments:  

I take back all the idiotic excuses I made on the guestbook and elsewhere. Everyone that beat me in the championship was better than me that day and deserved it.

A good player would have been better prepared for the championship than me. It was completely random that two of my best sessions got cancelled, and it's my own fault that I only had 3 good sessions and a lot of bad sessions.

I was mainly disappointed in myself because I didn't finish a single game close to my potential top speed. I had been hoping to get at least one result that proved that I'm capable of sup-4 3BV/s/11 on intermediate and sub-50 on expert, but I didn't feel that I accomplished that goal.

Maybe I was putting a little too much pressure on myself during the tournament, or got nervous of some other reason. I am pretty confident that the filming had little or nothing to do with it, just to make that clear. If I'm going to another championship in the future, I will try to be prepared for this.

BTW: I agree that playing the main event and a side event simultaneously should be avoided in the future. I think the main reasons has probably already been mentioned. I'm not sure if the best solution is to arrange two events the same day, extend the minesweeper event to two days or maybe arrange two championships the same year. I guess this will be discussed in more detail later.

I think this post is long enough for now, so I'll get back to this in another post later

   
Sep 25th 2008 at 09:01:27 AM
Name:  

joni

Comments:  

the videos are back...

gergö: it is not me the one complaining... (see Michael =P )

   
Sep 25th 2008 at 06:46:20 AM
Name:  

Gergő

Comments:  

@Ronny: You are right about the travelling... I haven't thought about this... And you see it quite right, I would tolerate if beer drinking was the main event, but I should have been careful, as the main event would have impaired the sideevent (Minesweeper)
@Joni: Sorry for the wrong expression. I studied the right one.
@Kamil: You have the speed and the talent to do a sub 40. You only need patience and time. Time will come soon! Good luck to it

   
Sep 25th 2008 at 05:50:31 AM
Name:  

KAmil

Comments:  

127/137 est 43 I hope to get sub40 in next 2 months

   
Sep 25th 2008 at 05:12:27 AM
Name:  

Ronny

Comments:  

Ah you used flags....tsk.....even I would get 40s with flags easily, if i tried.

   
Sep 25th 2008 at 04:01:21 AM
Name:  

KAmil

Comments:  

@Ronny: it was FL

   
Sep 25th 2008 at 01:37:42 AM
Name:  

Ronny

Comments:  

@Kamil: Ouch 4sec below WR! . On the positive side......those big time jumps may be fun for 1 day but in the end simply suck ass, because you get much more (world/personal) records if you improve your record with small steps. I remember quitting minesweeper after a 13s jump to 81 because it demotivated me and if I hadn't blasted a 67s once (79->67) I would have quit 6 months earlier as well, because big jumps are demotivating as hell.

   
Sep 24th 2008 at 11:22:41 PM
Name:  

KAmil

Comments:  

Arbiter: 115/117 est40 lost on a fvcking 50-50
@joni: vids broke down, when repaired i will link the vid

   
Sep 24th 2008 at 11:22:04 PM
Name:  

joni

Comments:  

very arrogant comment from a native english speaker . I don't think stuff like that matters as long as the meaning comes forward (in this most informal of guestbooks ). btw Tommy, the .cc website (Christoph/Eva), wp and me have all used the correct version ... so the ones you're blaming for using "crush" at the end of the day are gergö and kamil...

   
Sep 24th 2008 at 02:21:58 PM
Name:  

Michael

Comments:  

@Gergely- I think you misread my first post, or skipped some of it. I likened minesweeper to the long jump because it has always been a quest to get a single good score. Tournaments are the only time anyone cares about completion. My idea for a tournament structure haven't changed since I suggested it. Here it is from that first post, copy and pasted:

"How about a series of five/ten minute sessions? It's interesting because it's in short bursts, which means people are playing faster to see as many boards as possible, and you'll have to have a good completion rate to solve a board in that time. When the time is up, players get the same amount of time again to rest their hands (we could rotate players to keep it moving), which would result in better performance for everyone. At the end, for the sake of argument, give two different awards: one for the single fastest time, one for best average 3x3/5x5/whatever. Those who value completion a lot will find that the 5x5 award means more to them, those who value speed the opposite. "

I mention both a top speed award and a completion award - the idea is that you use the scores from one compeition to determine both winners. I don't think there is a need for a separate event.

This is a misunderstanding, on both parts probably, let's forget it. It also underlines how easy it is to get wires crossed, and the need for a simple system

@All - isn't the verb 'to crash'? Or is 'crush' some computer vocab I don't know?

   
Sep 24th 2008 at 11:40:23 AM
Name:  

KAmil

Comments:  

I see that Meeting Ranking is updated, but y I cant download my vids?
@Damien: Vienna minesweeper is now accepted version so I think u should add to ranking Rogen's 42s exp from budapest 3
btw, Budapest 3 was in April, in what month will be Budapest 4?

   
Sep 24th 2008 at 09:07:17 AM
Name:  

Eva

Comments:  

-t b

   
Sep 24th 2008 at 09:05:08 AM
Name:  

Eva

Comments:  

@Gergely: Koszi , most mar en is latom, hogy remenytelen a helyzet - nem is irok tobett.

   
Sep 24th 2008 at 07:45:30 AM
Name:  

Ronny

Comments:  

@Gergo: Well, 10am could mean that people, that now drove hours to reach Vienna in the morning, either will have to skip sleeping and drive at night or have to book 1 extra night at the hotel. Not everyone will have the money for an (extra) night in a hotel and players that fall asleep half way isn't desirable either. So I don't thing that would be a good idea.

BTW, why do I get the idea you'd also like to make drinking beer the main event?

   
Sep 24th 2008 at 06:36:06 AM
Name:  

GergA?

Comments:  

about Tournament format: What Kamil suggested was not a bad idea. What about if we play let's say time trials in the morning (10 AM to 1 PM, but it depends on the number of participants ) than we go together to have a lunch and we begin the three hours 5 + 5 at 3 PM to 6 PM. After it we can go to drink some beer I think, this is not so much, and with that two hours free time anybody can come into shape again. 10 AM is not a so early starting time, I guess. Just consider that school and work usually starts around 8 AM. And if Christoph finds the problem why the system crushed, it won't crush anymore, so Gergely will have more time as he wouldn't have to deal with excel. What do you think about this?

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Sep 24th 2008 at 06:15:17 AM
Name:  

damien

Comments:  

On a different topic, I just finished deleting ~2100 of my minesweeper videos. Who was ever going to watch them all? hehe. Of course I kept the best 1000 or so.

And, minesweeper.info is #1 on Yahoo.com now

I have not said much this week, because I am waiting for my internet to get installed again. It's nice to have a 'hot' topic again in the gb

   
Sep 24th 2008 at 05:04:59 AM
Name:  

KAmil

Comments:  

and another 11NF on 53: 11,88
btw, today I made my 2nd fastest rubiks cube solve - 25s 2 layers in 12s (2s cross and I didnt have to do slots - when I put 1, next was ready , but the last layer took me crazily much time anyway, if I can solve 2 layers in 12s and sometimes 3rd layer in 3-5s, i know that I can get sub20

   
Sep 24th 2008 at 04:48:08 AM
Name:  

KAmil

Comments:  

ouch Arbiter: 1,96 FL 7of8 3BV

   
Sep 24th 2008 at 04:19:27 AM
Name:  

Gergely

Comments:  

@Kamil: maybe yes, maybe not. I know I was tired but I did some excel work as well while you, for example, had some free time Six plus two sessions might have been only 3 hours of sweeping with 6-min breaks between each sessions not 5 and a half. And don't tell me that you swept some more mine in between the sessions because the competition requires a different level of concentration than free sweeping

   
Sep 24th 2008 at 03:36:52 AM
Name:  

KAmil

Comments:  

@Gergely: we wouldnt reqiure 2 days - Vienna IV was from 13 to 19 and nobody was too tired. I think that 2-3 hours 5 -|- 5, then 1 hour break and 2 hours of completion session would be good

   
Sep 24th 2008 at 12:51:30 AM
Name:  

Gergely

Comments:  

woooo... look at that anger C'mon Michael, first you have a long jump analogy which in my interpretation means that only the best result counts and that that should be preferable in a tournament, just like world rankings. (irony alert: Am I missing something? Has the rules in Athletics changed recently?) Then you say it's some more little sessions with an average? That's not like long jump, but I like your format as well, for example the idea of having some attendance-drawing short sessions (that's what time trial is for as well). And that you have different system including no drop-outs and no beginner? The latter one I like as well because I don't like beginner The other one - I don't know. Depends on the number of participants.
And yes, I agree with Kamil that two winners in two category is the best. We couldn't do that this time and that might require two days for the tournament if you want to take both event seriously.
Anyway, there weren't any suggestions about the system before, only criticism. Please, keep on typing your ideas here

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Sep 23rd 2008 at 05:39:00 PM
Name:  

Michael

Comments:  

@Gergely - stop trying to annoy me! At first you said my idea was one thing, then something completely different, when the idea hasn't changed at all. Make your mind up! If you really want me to spell it out, my idea differs from the Vienna format in the following ways:

- No points system
- No one is eliminated before the end
- No beginner mode (I didn't implicity state this, because I forgot beginner had been used in Vienna)
- The only equation needed is one that can average 3/5 scores.

It is similar in that it has many short sessions in place of one large one. That's because I think Christoph had a good idea there.

@Eva - I know, you weren't seriously suggesting a translator. But you said it as if it was the only option. The much easier option is to eliminate the need for a translation service at all, by having a very simple format. Also, yes, people can guess quite quickly that completion is important in this system, but it's not as simple as "completion is important", is it? Take a look at Christoph's explanation on minesweeper.cc. See the amount of formulae? It's bordering on ridiculous. If you open the help box on minesweeper, you will see an overview of the whole game that is 28 words in length. How we end up with something so complicated is beyond me. Add to that the fact that completion is already tested in a tournament, no matter what the format, and those who don't value completion rates (most people) feel hard done by.

   
Sep 23rd 2008 at 01:03:10 PM
Name:  

Ronny

Comments:  

Sweet, all score now at: www.minesweeper.cc . Big thanks to Christoph for that.

Nice overview.......I actually finally fully understand the point system now. I'm terrible with understanding text (close to being dyslectic), but I'm very good with numbers, so seeing the results made it very clear to me now.

I see Tommy even won 5 out of 6 sessions, so a very deserved win too say the least.

Also the 35s lead by Kamil on the 5 5 is really impressive. Considering the fact that , including the results of the canceled 2nd section, all his 10 times were the fastest of the tournament.

   
Sep 23rd 2008 at 06:56:23 AM
Name:  

Serpenter

Comments:  

Congrats Kamil, thats a really nice scores.

   
Sep 23rd 2008 at 06:06:29 AM
Name:  

KAmil

Comments:  

LOL. my tournament 49NF was made on 172 3BV board
and I didnt know that on disaccpeted sessions I made another 51NF and 54, I alsways started a new game after solved board.
so if all sessions were accepted, my scores would be:
12-13x2-15x2 49-51x2-53-54
btw, when the scores will be added to Meeting ranking on minesweeper.cc?

   
Sep 23rd 2008 at 03:03:55 AM
Name:  

KAmil

Comments:  

Gergely posted: "how can we combine these two skills and have one champion?" The answer is, we cant, as we cant compare 100m and 1000m runners. Ive posted the best solution : play 2-3 hours session of 5-|-5 and then 1-2 hours completion session.

   
Sep 23rd 2008 at 01:23:20 AM
Name:  

Ronny

Comments:  

@Eva: I don't think the problem of not understanding the system was related to not understanding it after 1 or 2 sessions. I think the main problem was not understanding it before the tournament and drawing the wrong conclusions out of it when making tactics. I've read the rules before the tournament and also discussed tactics and training with Kamil before the tournament (he also posted a couple of question on the guestbook about the system without feedback). Looking at your results he did start playing as planned, so I can see he still misunderstood the system at the start.

Surely he figured out how the system worked after 2 sessions and knew that he could not win in this type of point system with his current training, so he indeed gave up on trying to become maybe 4-5th place at best and focused on the 5 5 during the remaining sessions to win the side-event. Not a weird choice if you've been training for a 'biathlon' and the tournament turns out to be a 'triathlon'.

   
Sep 23rd 2008 at 01:06:57 AM
Name:  

Gergely

Comments:  

Na megegyszer, ekezetek nelkul, mert szetszedte a kodolas:
@Eva: Vedd figyelembe, hogy akikkel itt vitatkozunk, kicsit nagy egoval rendelkezo fiatalkoru egyenek, akik olyan koruak lehetnek, mint lengyel baratunk Kisse kemenyfejuek...

   
Sep 23rd 2008 at 01:04:19 AM
Name:  

Gergely

Comments:  

Hey Michael, you just described the time trial sessions! congrats for drawing this conclusion!

@A?va: Vedd figyelembe, hogy akikkel itt vitatkozunk, kicsit nagy egA3val rendelkezA? fiatalkorAo egyAnek, akik olyan korAoak lehetnek, mint lengyel barA!tunk KissA makacsok...

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Sep 23rd 2008 at 12:30:41 AM
Name:  

GergA?

Best expert:  

Avoids

Best intermediate:  

(hopefully) all

Best beginner:  

misunderstandings :)

Comments:  

@Kamil: I know it well that you had to go home. I did not mean that at all. I mean the competition itself. You just sat in front of your computer... It is not a blame, do not misunderstand me, please. It was just a fact that I saw. Gergely described it perfectly that I thought. But never mind your English knowledge, we surely would have been able to understand you. If you do not know the exact word, just describe it. And we (at least I, for sure) are courious what you think about certain things in Minesweeper or music or anything else. I hope, next time you will also stay with us for some programs.
@Nikolaj: You are fool ... I meant only that he showed me the the importance of the number of openings and mouse track. I think considering these things I can improve.
@Joni and WP and all: As I knew that I do not have any chance to beat most of the participants, I went there just to beat a barrier that I set for myself, and for having fun with people there. I think the tournament was about fun, and this should be its first task (according to my opinion). I accept that there is always a prestige to be first/second etc., but exactly due to the different sweeping habits and different desires for the tournament system it is not a competition (in any systems) that shows the real knowledge and abilities of sweepers. It is similar to compare cars. A truck can be better in some cases than a car and vice versa. Both do the same: they carry and travel. But in a similar but even different way.
@Jon: Yes, I meant minesweeper videos. But one thing is sure, I was not drunk at all. Just think about the fact that I had a conversation with the taxi driver in German after seven years of forgetting the language, and such words came into my mind that I did not expect at all . And I think I showed you the map, too. (I would have needed additional 4-5 beers to be drunk ).
@all: I will be happy if many of you come to Budapest Tournament

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Sep 23rd 2008 at 12:25:41 AM
Name:  

Eva

Comments:  

Just go to http://www.minesweeper.cc/singlesite/points.html and look at session 1 and the exp scores. Well, Kamil’s 58,86 is better than any of Christoph’s scores and Christoph is ranked first and Kamil 9th in this category. Do you really think that it is possible that one does not realise that completion is important? Or that it is the sum of the exp times (with 999 for not completed boards)?

   
Sep 23rd 2008 at 12:18:21 AM
Name:  

Eva

Comments:  

@Michael: Well, if someone complains that he did not perform good because he did not understand the goals/instructions, this gives me to think. I did neither suggest to translate everything (irony here as well), but I am really wondering! Playing no minesweeper at all, I had to participate during the testing of the system and after session 1 even I realised that

finishing many boards -> good
not finishing many boards -> not good
finishing many boards with very good times -> very good

- without reading the rules before.

The ranking (which contains only names, times and points so no language knowledge is required) could be studied for a not so short time during the sessions (we had software problems and had to transfer the result into excel sheets so there WAS time to study them), I really wonder how someone could not understand what he has to play!

If someone does not care about the system, that is fine, but pretending that one could not understand it? I do not defend the system, how could I, if I do not even play. You may say anything against the system and I have nothing to reply, but I have the feeling that people pretend not to understand it for their purposes. However, I will never believe that a smart guy like Kamil does not get how the ranking works for 4 sessions and then, after the tournament is over, the scales fall from his eyes and suddenly understands the system and blames it.

   
Sep 22nd 2008 at 03:41:20 PM
Name:  

Michael

Comments:  

@Eva - I think you missed my point slightly (irony alert). I wasn't suggesting that we make literature available in everyone's native language. My point was that in any international community, if only one language is used, not everyone is going to speak it as well as a native speaker. That's not a criticism of anyone, just a fact. And I don't think people should be penalised for not speaking English. The upshot is, a tournament system should, ideally, be very simple to understand and simple to explain. The problem is only exacerbated...er...made worse...by the fact that we only talk via text on a screen. Everybody wants a fair and enjoyable contest without problems and misunderstandings, keeping things simple is the way to do that. As I said, I'm sure everyone involved with the tournament did their best, and I have nothing negative to say about them.

@Gergely - I disagree that a long jump analogy results in a tournament lasting several days trying for one excellent board. In long jump, you get X amount of jumps (5? 6? I'm not sure), with only your best jump being counted. My idea was that you get a series of short sessions, each of which represents a 'jump'. If you fail to get a good jump in those sessions, that's it. Therefore, completion is also tested, because you have very limited time (something like 50 minutes overall, I dunno). On their own a lot of players struggle to finish a game in that time. Plus you can have a 'consistency' winner and a 'blaze of glory' winner. Reading this paragraph back it sounds a little defensive, but I didn't mean it to be. I think minesweeper on one's own is exactly as you describe, waiting a long time for a perfect board, but the closest tourney structure to that is the 3hr 5x5, which I too have misgivings about.

Sorry for another long, and quite negative-sounding, post. Well done to everyone at Vienna for organising and participating and winning and everything else. I love everybody! (just to even out my karma)

   
Sep 22nd 2008 at 02:30:10 PM
Name:  

Gergely

Comments:  

Hey, just got back from my usual floorball evening after work and have the following things to add: (why not? the topic is hot )
First, about the system - again: yes, minesweeper is a bit like long jump, if you only play for the world record. But the tournament doesn't suits that because then it should be several days of endless clicking waiting for the perfect board. This long jump parallelism is definitely not good for this happening (sorry Michael and Wee Pin) as we have to decide somehow who's better. But there's no one single best player as there's no one single best athlete. And I repeat the meaning of my old post here which I suppose noone looked up: the 5 5 is designed for speed. But even speed is not enough as you must have some consistency here. Just ask Roman about his experience from last year's World C'ship where he made the best single exp score but did not win.
Then there's the time trial which rewards completion. It's not measured in world rankings, because there's no way currently to measure that. But you can't deny that solving a given board IS the point of the game as well as the time required to do so.
Then there's the problem of limited time at the tournaments: how can we combine these two skills and have one champion? That's what Christoph tried with this point system. If we want metaphor with athletics, then decathlon it is You had to finish the board and finish them fast as well. No, the point system was not perfect, but hey, tell me a better one! or make it better! There are several ways for sure

And second: I know what GergA? meant with his antisocial remark about Kamil. He came into the room just some 15 minutes before the tournament, didn't introduce himself to the others, only gave one-word answers if we asked him something and didn't say much afterwards as well. But hey, Kamil, I won't call you antisocial just because you were visibly nervous and didn't want to chat but only concentrate to the game Hope you'll improve your English in the next months and will have a good chat with us next time. You have tremendous talent and dedication to this game and I found your clicking speed awesome. I just think that you do not control that speed enough now but I'm looking forward for your first 9 with a lucky board

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Sep 22nd 2008 at 02:00:15 PM
Name:  

Jon S

Comments:  

Errr. I'm not sure, but I think Gergö might be referring to some videos we watched at the hotel room. I could stop here, and let you guess what kind of videos but it was actually minesweeper videos

Now I remember that Gergö was trying to show me the other side of the Donau the night before the minesweeper event (we were supposed to get back to our hotel). He claimed that he wasn't drunk, but I think it was a mistake to give him my map

Of course, I only mentioned that as a another poor excuse for underperforming a little bit at the championship

   
Sep 22nd 2008 at 01:45:33 PM
Name:  

joni

Comments:  

Eva I'd like to thank you for your help for organizing the tournament . I am one of those guys who shows up just for the pleasure of taking part and meeting people so I would have definitely appreciated your commitment =). (as i mentioned, unfortunately, i didn't have neither the time nor the financial possibility to be there this time around).
As for suggestions, it is more difficult to give from outside as I was not one of the partecipants... i can say i liked the mailing list we had for the Budapest tourney (where the phone numbers of everyone were mailed out together with info on when they were arriving a week or two before the tourney, so we could make the most of that communication channel and agree on where to meet in the city, some activities, etc.), then again you probably had one for this tournament too...
With regards to the system... Christoph actually happened to discuss it with me on IRC many months ago and I made some remarks on the things I didn't really like about it back then (that's why i said "from day one"). So when I read the rules I already knew what to expect... he had done one small change but for the rest my main concern hadn't been adressed. What really blew me off were the (very) partial results... I suspect that because of the software problems they have become very misleading and that that is the reason why a lot of people (who actually weren't there) caught fire (tommy's answer to kamils examples did nothing but add fuel to the misunderstanding)... That is why i am patiently waiting for the official results to finally understand if the tourney was played with the rules as written on the page, or if Christoph introduced further changes at the last minute... Since I find the latter quite unlikely, i expect many people will feel less critic of the system when they actually get to see those results.

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Sep 22nd 2008 at 12:55:40 PM
Name:  

KAmil

Comments:  

@Rogen: I dont know side event scores of others, but my scores were:
12-13-15x3 49-51-53-54(or55)-58 (all NF)
If 2nd session was also accepted, I would have another 13 instead of 15 and 54 instead of 58)
@tK: people claim that u would also win 5 -|- 5,but Im not sure. I want to play with u on minesweeperlive, have u got MSN to contact u?

   
Sep 22nd 2008 at 10:41:53 AM
Name:  

WP

Best expert:  

my two cents

Comments:  

Why all this discussion about who's the best or the fastest? I think we can safely say that Tommy won this tournament, and no one can argue with that.

It's hard to say which tournament system is better. Like Michael said, minesweeper is a little like long jump; only the best result counts. But in competitions, mediocre jumpers don't even join (I mean those who jump maybe half the distance of the world record...like me? :P) Whereas in minesweeper, we want as many sweepers as possible to join, even those who have personal records twice the world record (for example) That is why a "long jump" system might not be very suitable...it might take the competition out of the event.

That was the argument against the 5 5 system. Against the time trial system...I think pretty much everything has been said.

My point in this is that there might be no perfect way to make a tournament measure players' skill. I would say that we should accept each tournament as an opportunity for minesweepers all over the world to meet up, have fun playing minesweeper against each other, maybe in various forms of competition. Maybe the next tournament can be more creative (not that I have any ideas), and the players can compete in different ways. The main thing is to have fun. After all, we already know who are the best sweepers based on the high scores.

Of course, it would also be necessary to understand the tournament format beforehand, so that everyone will know what they're in for. (and eventually, any strategies they plan to adopt) I wonder why those who didn't understand the system this time didn't ask about it before starting to play...we could have gone through it step by step. Personally I think the system is a bit complicated but with an example (maybe a long one though) it can be understood.

And another thing: I don't think Christoph should be blamed for any crashes in the system...and after all, he did have backup plans for some glitches, though unfortunately not the one that occurred.

So I'd like to say thanks to the organisers, congratulations to the winners, and to everyone who was there: it was really nice meeting you all! Till next time ;)

   
Sep 22nd 2008 at 10:31:09 AM
Name:  

Rogen

Comments:  

I wonder when full results of the tournament will be available. At least result of "side event"

   
Sep 22nd 2008 at 09:36:09 AM
Name:  

KAmil

Comments:  

@Nikolaj: what was that 'interesting thing"?

   
Sep 22nd 2008 at 07:18:42 AM
Name:  

Nikolaj

Comments:  

@Jon: Thanks for sharing a room with me, and for showing some interesting things.

Errr... I don't want to know the details

   
Sep 22nd 2008 at 06:38:40 AM
Name:  

Ronny

Comments:  

@Gergo: You should blame KAmils greedy sponsor for that, rofl

   
Sep 22nd 2008 at 05:59:31 AM
Name:  

KAmil

Comments:  

Arbiter: 11 in 2,64 @ 6,707 NF
@Gergo: why antisocial? i couldnt bowl with u because I would get back home @ 3-4 o'clock @ night

   
Sep 22nd 2008 at 05:35:07 AM
Name:  

GergA?

Comments:  

Dear Vienna Tournament participants,

thank you a lot for this competition (and the side event, which was this time some glasses of beer ). I felt myself well. I hope to see you in Budapest next year.
And I am very proud of my achievements. I had together about ten sub 80s before the tournament, and I made 3 times sub 80! But one of my 78 was taken togther with a 23 int, as they were in the second session... If these two results counted, I would be 20 seconds better... But even so my expectations were achieved. I planned 575 and I got 562 (5 5).
About the tournament system. Being a non-flagger, I wanted to achieve a better result on the side event, so I agree with Kamil. Due to the system crushes we had only 1,5 hours to do our bests and not 3 hours... If I had been able to play 1,5 hours more, I would surely have improved at least 20 seconds... (92 94 96 were the other exp games...). For next time, I suggest that the side event should be 3 hours... I know that this tournament wanted to be longer, as the dropout system was modified. Just to mention without hurting anybody: when I dropped out there were so little differences between 3 players. Eduard had ca. 4-5 points, and Andreas had about 10 points more than me... I do not blame anybody. I am not hurted at all. These are only facts, nothing else. I think, all systems should be improved, including any political systems, PC operation systems, etc and this one, as well. The more we play in this system the more failures got realised. The basic idea is not bad, but it should be maybe a bit more time for one session. Of course, this is my opinion.
@Kamil: you seemed to be a bit antisocial. I hope, next time in Budapest you will stay with us for a longer time with a perfect health. .
@Jon: Thanks for sharing a room with me, and for showing some interesting things.
@Organisers: Well done, guys! Thanks for your help and for all.
@"Minesweeper Television": I am courious about that video . And I would be happy to meet you again.

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Sep 22nd 2008 at 05:30:56 AM
Name:  

KAmil

Best beginner:  

1x25 -> x26

Comments:  

Arbiter: 1,97 on 6 @ 6,18 in my folder
I believe that more players would come if we can sponsor transport for them instead of prizes for winners.

   
Sep 22nd 2008 at 05:27:31 AM
Name:  

Ronny

Comments:  

@KAmil: Glad you also see it's mainly about meeting other sweepers and having fun.

Who knows, maybe I'll come to the next tourny in Vienna as well to get to meet you guys. (if I can keep my minesweeper addiction under control. )

   
Sep 22nd 2008 at 04:19:23 AM
Name:  

KAmil

Comments:  

@Damien: u forgot to write 4 news about my records:
Beg NF 6,96 3BVs (11 Sept)
Exp NF 3,743 3BVs (08 Sept)
Beg NF 7,143 3BVs (15 Sept)
Int FL 5,805 3BVs (2nd best in world) (08 Sept)
Also I think u made a mistake writing a news about my sup16 NF 3BVs sum - ti should be 7,143-5,214-3,743
And I agree with others, the most imortant thing is too meet each other, and despite I hate the point system, I also hope to come to next tournaments (also with points system)

   
Sep 22nd 2008 at 04:01:26 AM
Name:  

Ronny

Comments:  

@Gergely: The points of this tournament can simply not be compared with previous and future events nor can you compare a players result with their world ranking. A tournament also serves the purpose to prove your true skill to the rest of the world without any doubts about legicy, so by making the best 5 5 scores public, everyone will be able to see how good and legit a player really is. Also it's nice to be able to compare the results of i.e Shanghai with Vienna even though they weren't the same circumstances (best 3 3 main event vs. best 5 5 side-event).......it's still the best comparison we have.

   
Sep 22nd 2008 at 03:16:42 AM
Name:  

Gergely

Comments:  

Dear Ronny, can't you just accept that the results from the sideevent can't be compared to other tournaments from the past? Tommy, Reid and Christoph played only sessions with time trial, for example The sideevent was only a repechage thing for those who already dropped out.

   
Sep 22nd 2008 at 02:58:50 AM
Name:  

Eva

Comments:  

As I do not play minesweeper myself, I remained silent during the discussions about the tournament system. However, when it comes to the organisation of the tournament itself, I think I have something to say as I was part of it. When Kamil cannot be blamed for â??bad Englishâ? (Note: I do not say that his English is bad!) so canâ??t Christoph. If someone does not understand what is written on the homepage, one is free to ask. (And as there were people who criticised the system from the first day on, I suppose at least those people must have understood the system. Otherwise it would be very strange to criticise something that one does not understand.) If not, please let me know what suggestion you have. Shall I organize a translator/native speaker for each language to translate the information? I am sorry, but I have already spent about 10% of my earnings last month on this tournament (And I was free to do so and I do not regret it at all! It was a pleasure to meet so many people from all over the world!) and interpreters are not that cheap here in Vienna. Honestly, what do you suggest?

   
Sep 22nd 2008 at 02:22:19 AM
Name:  

Ronny

Comments:  

@Gergely: If you say the two methods are not comparable you shouldn't label the results in terms of 'fastest' either. You should say 'Tommy' was BEST at the new system, that's all you can conclude out of it. 'Fastest' is by definition measured in time, not points. I think it's too bad that Tommy had to adjust his speed to win on points, because I think we all agree that on a World championship, on any sport, we want to see the players play at their max speed (with the ultimate goal of setting a new WR with live audience.)

I do hope the 5 5 results are posted together with the previous tournaments, so we can compare the results of Vienna '08 with other tournaments.

BTW, we shouldn't forget that these tournaments are more meetings to give players the chance to meet other players with the same passion, rather than actual 'world championships' because not nearly all best players can attend. This whole discussion about who's better or faster is actually pretty irrelevant.

   
Sep 22nd 2008 at 01:35:56 AM
Name:  

Gergely

Comments:  

@everyone in this ridiculous tournament system discussion: please read one of my older posts again about the trial and the 5 5 being incomparable (I won't look that up for you aas I'm back at work already .) This system wasn't flawless and I think even Christoph is ready to admit that But everyone had the chance to ask and even if there was no answer one could have asked before the tournament then. Everyone had the same opportunities/options/environment and time to train for the main event so Tommy is the fastest and Kamil is the 9th fastest until next year.

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Sep 22nd 2008 at 12:14:40 AM
Name:  

Nikolaj

Best expert:  

55

Best intermediate:  

12

Best beginner:  

1

Comments:  

@Parucka: No, Kamil wasn't the best, he was 9th (= even worse than me who didn't play minesweeper for 9 months before the tournament ). If he cared to win the tournament and finish the time trial, his scores would be much worse than Tommy's and if Tommy didn't care about winning the world championship, he could win the INT EXP session as well.

@damien: yes, you suck

We had really nice time in Vienna, in fact I don't really come to these tournaments to compete with the others but to meet them It was great to see all the people I met before and it was very nice to meet the new faces (especially with Gergö we have similar hobby = beer ) The only thing I didn't like in Vienna was very bad service at the bowling (waiting 20 minutes for a BOTTLE of beer is ridiculous)

Hopefully I will be able to come to another tournaments. See you (hopefully) in Budapest.

Oh and I'm the nonosweeper champion, my brother sucks

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Sep 21st 2008 at 11:13:27 PM
Name:  

Parucka

Best expert:  

57

Best intermediate:  

14

Best beginner:  

12

Comments:  

Who the **** cares about the completion rate? I havent seen any such statistics on winmine records table.
And even then, why 999s, why not 1998 or 3996? That would surely make a diference.
Times are what really counts.
So, congrats to Kamil for being the best!

   
Sep 21st 2008 at 05:59:27 PM
Name:  

Michael

Comments:  

Well, since players who actually participated in the tournament have openly stated that they *still* don't understand the system, it's pretty obvious that it needs to be changed. Let's not forget that there are several different languages being spoken, and people shouldn't be penalised for where they were brought up. If you have a native German speaker explaining, in English, a system that is not easy to understand, to be read by speakers of Polish, Russian, Dutch, French, Chinese, etc., it's asking for problems from the start.

There's no reason to blame anyone though - why wouldn't Christoph do his best? He wants the tournament to be successful more than anyone else, I imagine. He didn't have to host it. Well done for doing so.

I've been thinking of minesweeper in the same way as long jump. If you get one great result, you can fail the other jumps and it doesn't matter. Essentially, you get several attempts to make one very good jump. Isn't that what minesweeper has always been about? No one would substitute a 45 second score for three 46s. I think what people often forget is that minesweeper itself tests your completion rate, we don't need to help it along too much.

But I also think the 3 hour session is unnecessarily tiresome, and boring to watch. How about a series of five/ten minute sessions? It's interesting because it's in short bursts, which means people are playing faster to see as many boards as possible, and you'll have to have a good completion rate to solve a board in that time. When the time is up, players get the same amount of time again to rest their hands (we could rotate players to keep it moving), which would result in better performance for everyone. At the end, for the sake of argument, give two different awards: one for the single fastest time, one for best average 3x3/5x5/whatever. Those who value completion a lot will find that the 5x5 award means more to them, those who value speed the opposite. Any thoughts on this?

I also think 1vs1 could work, but it would help to have a 'group stage', where players are seeded so that the top players are kept apart. Team play would also be interesting. I think this could be tested out as a side event at a tourney.

   


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