The Authoritative Minesweeper Guestbook

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Viewing Page 24 of 27 (Total Entries: 2658)
Feb 10th 2007 at 10:41:14 AM
Name:  

Banzhaf

Best expert:  

69

Comments:  

check out this cool MS-related online-game
works like minesweeper (but crocodiles instead of mines;)
you have just to get to the upper shore as fast as possible

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Feb 10th 2007 at 10:03:28 AM
Name:  

Thomas

Comments:  

Just posting to inform everone who is interested that I just started using my upload directory, as some people might have thought I was not going to use it as I left it empty for a while because I did'nt have the vids available when I went online until now.
Nice work @Damien and Joni on the upload section!

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Feb 10th 2007 at 10:01:00 AM
Name:  

Thomas

Comments:  

Just posting to inform everone who is interested that I just started using my upload directory, as some people might have thought I was not going to use it as I left it empty for a while because I did'nt have the vids available when I went online until now.
Nice work @Damien and Joni on the upload section!

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Feb 10th 2007 at 07:47:34 AM
Name:  

Thomas

Comments:  

Well, what can I say, I must say that I agree 100% with what DB, Schu and Jake wrote.

And grats Manu!!!!

I uploaded pyMinesweeperImager and linked it below, if you want to run it, bear in mind that you need the python interpreter, downloadable from http://www.python.org/download.

To change a square, click on it (it will be selected) and hit:
1-8 for a number
b for a blank
m for a mine
f for a flag
q for a questionmark
w for a wrongly placed mine
r for a blasted mine (r because it has a red background)
t for a normal tile.
save a situation by entering a name for the file into the entry field below and pressing save, load by entering a filename and pressing load, and don't add extensions, the program does it for you and is still too stupid not to add another one if you add one yourself.
Thats pretty much it, have fun using it!

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Feb 10th 2007 at 07:23:34 AM
Name:  

Zhang Shen Jia

Comments:  

manuel, you are crazy!

   
Feb 10th 2007 at 06:00:31 AM
Name:  

Schu (Andrew McCauley)

Comments:  

@ joni:

"YOU CAN take beginner away from the AR, because you CREATED the AR. YOU CAN'T take beginner away from minesweeper, because you DIDN'T CREATE Minesweeper."

But we DID create the best-ever list. We can take it away from that. We can never take it away from minesweeper though, and no-one is suggesting that as far as I know - I'm even encouraging Tam to set up a beginner rankings site, and I would love for the IMC to endorse it in some way.

@ Areout:

"And stop with that "Detrusor is better on int than Lukasz" come on just look at their vids"

I agree Lucasz is much better at expert. I had a look at Lucasz's 14. If he is better than me, it isn't by much. Maybe he could have improved at int with practice, but the point is that he didn't, so he doesn't have the int skills, yet. It requires practice, just like expert requires practice (think about Tam, Manuel, Matt, Manu, etc. etc.)

@ Manuel: Grats!!!

@ All: I'm about to update AR and BE.

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Feb 10th 2007 at 04:32:58 AM
Name:  

manuel heider again

Best intermediate:  

13.635 -> 12.331 NF

Comments:  

soooory for tripple post but ....

Horst2104 Last game: 12.331sec - 3BV=34 - 3BV/s=3.001 - level=int *non-flagging* - Ranks: 4/6418 - IOE=0.739 - RQP=4.109

mfg

   
Feb 10th 2007 at 04:31:02 AM
Name:  

manuel

Comments:  

and 3bv/s record NF ...
Horst2104 Last game: 21.88sec - 3BV=82 - 3BV/s=3.927 - level=int *non-flagging07* - Ranks: 6637/1164 - IOE= 0.752 - RQP=5.572

btw, the time record was also a rqp record
sub4 ;-)

   
Feb 10th 2007 at 04:08:08 AM
Name:  

manuel heider

Best intermediate:  

14.xx -> 13.635 NF

Comments:  

got new nf record on int ;-)

Horst2104 Last game: 13.635sec - 3BV=45 - 3BV/s=3.562 - level=int *non-flagging* - Ranks: 45/3068 - IOE=0.849 - RQP=3.828

mfg

   
Feb 10th 2007 at 03:49:29 AM
Name:  

AreOut

Comments:  

"Sure, it's a second or two"

How do you mean two?! If you cant beat 3 on beginner then I dunno just ask Tam for some classes

And stop with that "Detrusor is better on int than Lukasz" come on just look at their vids

   
Feb 10th 2007 at 02:03:30 AM
Name:  

joni

Best expert:  

60

Best intermediate:  

14 = Lukasz and about 50 or so more

Best beginner:  

proud to have a 2, like Oli and thousands of others

Comments:  

Yeah, we are all experts, why don't we agree to kill beginner completely from Clone and Arbiter too? Who playes Clone or Arbiter is not a beginner, right? .

Guys you are getting too far away with this discussion, and so much involved in it you can't see where you're heading to.

YOU CAN take beginner away from the AR, because you CREATED the AR. YOU CAN'T take beginner away from minesweeper, because you DIDN'T CREATE Minesweeper.

The original game has 3 ways to rank people, we have 22 (or more maybe). And now we are arguing to take one of the original ranks down? Are we making any sense?

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Feb 10th 2007 at 01:51:39 AM
Name:  

WP

Comments:  

@DB: I'm not trying to prevent moving closer to perfect, I'm just saying that it won't bring us any closer to perfect anyway.

I think I have nothing new to add about the other arguments, I'd just be repeating myself.

   
Feb 9th 2007 at 07:39:39 PM
Name:  

Jake

Best expert:  

39

Comments:  

tard is too easy to manipulate. Pick a board you want to see (low 3bv? high 3bv?) and wait for it to come. You want a 1? Prepare to click the middle and hit F2 a lot for a while. No skill needed, just patience.

Int can be kinda manipulated too... just hit f2 until you get one that bursts, and wham here comes a time record. (Or a rilian corner, but what can you do.)

Expert is the one true test of skill. But we may as well leave intermediate in because I sure don't have a 9 in expert!

   
Feb 9th 2007 at 07:34:12 PM
Name:  

Daniel Brim

Comments:  

Oops, triple post after I got caught up.

Anyhow, to offer an additional two cents (if I keep this up I'll get poor eventually). I don't see how my 1 on a 2 is better than Schu's 20-something 2s, and yet if we would have had the same scores, I would have clearly been ahead of him. Intermediate involves more skill, and I don't think that anybody can deny that. Therefore, a 1 second difference on intermediate is more skill-related.

Also, you can get lucky on any level. Manu got lucky on int, Knolan got lucky on exp. However, it's *more* likely to get lucky on beginner and *less* correlated to skill.

As for the argument of "catering to the new people" as was described on the previous page by WP. I don't get it. If you have sub100 total, you have likely outgrown beginner's purpose. The real purpose of it is to teach you what the numbers mean :-P

Anyhow, to keep this brief, I will say that I am in favor of axing beginner from the *official* rankings. However, perhaps there can be an option/drop down list (oh man, Christoph's gonna kill me) to include beginner, but it wouldn't be the "official" ranks.

   
Feb 9th 2007 at 07:23:59 PM
Name:  

Daniel Brim

Comments:  

D'argh, I missed Tommy's earlier post because it wasn't on this page. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

   
Feb 9th 2007 at 07:18:25 PM
Name:  

Daniel Brim

Comments:  

So, WP, are you trying to prevent moving closer to what one would consider "perfect" by saying that nothing ever will be? Even if you don't consider something to be perfect, it doesn't mean that progress can't be made.

Sure, it's a second or two, but it DOES make a difference. I entered the top 100 on BE by getting a 1 on beginner, even though I didn't really pass anybody in skill. And before I had that 1, I was behind people with the exact same times as me on the other levels, despite having about the same amount of skill as them.

   
Feb 9th 2007 at 10:30:08 AM
Name:  

WP

Comments:  

Congrats to Kat, Jason, and Manu!!

Quoting Thomas: Yes, it's not perfect, but what ranking system is?

Okay, this sentence clears things up. That is exactly my reason for thinking that beginner should stay in the rankings. And when we start using the same argument to defend different opinions, that means that we have a different way of looking at things, and it's not like it's ever going to change.

I think what AreOut is doing is just showing you all how silly this argument is. I take my hat off to you, you just about summed everything up in a sentence.

One last thing about luck. In minesweeper luck comes in many ways. It can be the random clicks at the start of a game, it can be the board you get, it can be your choice when you have to guess, it can even be whether your mouse decides to go kiss the edge of the mousepad! And all this on any level. With all this luck involved, you're going to kick beginner out because it's luck? (in fact that's what I meant by the 15-16 comparison)

   
Feb 9th 2007 at 09:24:05 AM
Name:  

Ace

Comments:  

Haha great great job Manu! Grats!

And welcome to the bestever, Kat!

   
Feb 9th 2007 at 08:54:24 AM
Name:  

manuel heider

Comments:  

Horst2104 Last game: 1.999sec - 3BV=5 - 3BV/s=5.005 - level=beg *non-flagging* - Ranks: 1/223 - IOE=0.714 - RQP=0.399

...and first legit 1 s ;-)
lool
(and its NF)
mfg

   
Feb 9th 2007 at 08:25:49 AM
Name:  

Jason K.

Comments:  

Grats Kat!!

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Feb 9th 2007 at 08:01:16 AM
Name:  

manuel

Comments:  

thx damien, nice words ;-) but i jumped from 15 to 11 ;-)
btw got 3 more sup5s , including "two times 2nd" 5.18 and 5.2
the vid of the 11 (it sucks...) will soon be on bestever
i hope that ive broken now my 12s-syndrom ;-)
mfg

   
Feb 9th 2007 at 07:02:46 AM
Name:  

damien

Comments:  

i remember when manuel 'lucky' heider jumped from 14 to 11. i was annoyed that a newbie could tie the WR, especially with 11.97, when i slaved 4 years for it.

manu is no longer 'lucky': he's good. i haven't played intermediate for several months (about 8 hours since september), but after watching him in Vienna I was inspired and got sup5 (x2), 11 (#3,#4) and several 12s (#6 --> #12).

12x22 ?! Manu...you are insane. I was still beating you last summer. At least I have more 11s ... for a few more weeks

   
Feb 9th 2007 at 06:45:56 AM
Name:  

manuel heider

Best intermediate:  

11.97 --> 11.539

Comments:  

first legit 11 ;-)
Horst2104 Last game: 11.539sec - 3BV=31 - 3BV/s=2.941 - level=int *flagging* - Ranks: 1/6534 - IOE=0.585 - RQP=3.923

after 22x12 and 15 month of waiting i got it ;-)
feels good...
mfg

   
Feb 9th 2007 at 06:45:35 AM
Name:  

Schu (Andrew McCauley)

Comments:  

Thomas: You might consider including material from my thread on pm : http://www.planete-demineur.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=991

Tam, fair enough. My main argument about int times is that, in the example that AreOut gave, Detrusor is the better intermediate player anyway, so he deserves the better int time over Lucasz. That it is a 3 second difference as opposed to beginners small differences makes little difference, most people that have a 3 second difference in intermediate probably have a 10 second difference in expert, it's just that Detrusor is somewhat of an intermediate specialist and Lucasz is somewhat of an expert specialist. Detrusor deserves that 3 second difference as much as Lucasz deserves his lead in expert.

I got my 4th sub-60 today, on a 144. I appear to be in the best form I've ever been in. Here's hoping.

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Feb 9th 2007 at 06:22:33 AM
Name:  

Thomas

Comments:  

@Damien:
The period isn't over yet, the reason I posted the link was that I wondered why that URL led to the active ranking.

(Sorry or spamming BTW :P)

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Feb 9th 2007 at 06:06:37 AM
Name:  

Thomas

Comments:  

I will!
And I guess I could give you a couple more details:
In my school, we have the so-called "Ateliertage", three days with six course units (one in the morning and one in the afternoon on each day). Students can choose between probably 10-20 courses (my estimate from what I can remember) in each unit. Usually teachers hold the courses, but this year I was granted permission to hold two courses about minesweeper myself.
In the beginner course, I will teach everyone the basics, I won't assume any prior knowledge of the game, and in the advanced course I will do more advanced stuff like advanced patterns, efficiency, and so on. If everyone wants to, I might also include a tournament!
I have 10 people in the beginner course, and I have 14 people in the advanced one.
I wrote a little python script for the course, it is called pyMinesweeperImager and opens a window with a 10*20 minesweeper grid where you can select squares and give them any surface from 0-8, flags, mines, blasted mines, wrong mines, questionmarks, and normal unopened tiles, and it can save situations in files and load them again. I will upload it later today from my laptop!
I there is any advice you can give me as to what I should include, has anyone ever done something like this before?

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Feb 9th 2007 at 05:18:19 AM
Name:  

damien

Comments:  

Schu updated the AR (and gave me a 5 second penalty?!?! those were my best scores for the last two weeks, submitted 2 Feb)

Unless you mean who started it....Lance Votroubek, Dan Cerveny, Case Cantrell.

Thomas: Please send a report! I wish I could attend.

   
Feb 9th 2007 at 05:16:29 AM
Name:  

Tam Minh Bui

Comments:  

Hey Jason Kriegel, congratulations on your sub-minute game! I don't mean to let a great achievement go unnoticed.

I think AreOut is stating how silly it is that the debate over beginner regards the difference of a single second between players, while the difference in intermediate mode is greater between players and would definately have a greater impact on the rankings. I think this topic has already been covered in the past couple of posts, though...

But I really don't think it's fair to justify that a three-second difference is allowable because the average intermediate game is fourfold the length of the average beginner game. I'm pretty sure you meant well, but that comparison seems a bit strange. It's not really the averages of the player that we're reviewing, but the actual best times of a minesweeper player. I guess sometimes, a best intermediate game is a slight outlier in a player's total, but it is still deserved nonetheless. Not really trying to spark any sort of discussion, just a bit stumped as well.

@Thomas: That sounds cool! Kind of like a minesweeper seminar for students who are interested in improving?

   
Feb 9th 2007 at 04:20:15 AM
Name:  

Thomas

Comments:  

Oh, and BTW:
Does anyone of you know who did that?
(See website)

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Feb 9th 2007 at 04:18:31 AM
Name:  

Thomas

Comments:  

Nice game Kat!!!!!!!!!!
Way to enter BE on a sup150!!!

@Schu:
I have holidays

Still, forgive me if I don't post anything about beginner right now - I have two minesweeper courses to prepare.
Monday and tuesday afternoon I will give two 4-hour minesweeper courses, one for beginners and one for advanced players, and I still have to prepare a lot. And I need to write a couple of emails...

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Feb 9th 2007 at 12:37:18 AM
Name:  

joni

Comments:  

Echoes from the past...

Btw, Since his name has been mentioned a lot in the last days, I'd encourage you to check out some terrific games by Lukazs Malinowski freshly added to the upload section .

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Feb 9th 2007 at 12:23:02 AM
Name:  

joni

Comments:  

Terrific KAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Really nice game Jason!
That's the spirit!!! two barriers down in one day .
Kat, I guess you can play much more relaxed now AND REMEMBER TO CUT THAT FLAGGING!!!

Nice to see you are trying out the new uploads section and thanks for the positive comments on it. As the obscure location it is in suggests, it is still under testing, and I have noticed it doesn't behave as one would expect in one case. When Schu or Elmar had tried to post links to their videos, the others couldn't find them, but the links were working for the owners. That is because they are Logged in and that is their home directory. So to have the working link for everybody, one should (at the moment) log out and look at his directory as if he was a visitor trying to view files. Then the correct link name say:
http://minesweeper.info/videoindex.php?dir=ElmarZimmermann/&file=Expert%205%20openings.avf
containing the "dir=ElmarZimmermann/" would appear.
We'll be working on that and hopefully it would be fixed on the weekend.

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Feb 8th 2007 at 10:32:21 PM
Name:  

Schu (last post before I go to table tennis)

Comments:  

"Gr8, so Olis top 30% is probably less faster than Tams than Lukasz is from Detrusor, and yet difference is three times bigger on int"

Well the average intermediate game takes 4 times longer at least than beginner, and for low 3BV, it's more like 8 times longer. 3 times the time difference is no big deal compared to that. But I don't really get what your point is anyway...

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Feb 8th 2007 at 10:21:28 PM
Name:  

AreOut

Comments:  

WHOA GRATS KAT!


"@ AreOut: Incorrect. If you look at the clone rankings at least, you'll see that their top 30% of games is pretty similar with Lucasz being slightly ahead, but that doesn't take into account that if you look at the int page for both players, Lucasz is right at the top of his game very early in his history, where Gregoire has a very gradual improvement, so his recent averages are much much better I imagine."

Gr8, so Olis top 30% is probably less faster than Tams than Lukasz is from Detrusor, and yet difference is three times bigger on int

   
Feb 8th 2007 at 09:06:57 PM
Name:  

Schu (Andrew McCauley)

Best expert:  

RQP 22.594 => 21.566

Comments:  

3rd 3BV/s, 11th time, booyah! Nice IOE too: .828! This ousts my 3BV/s record as my top RQP game!

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Feb 8th 2007 at 08:40:59 PM
Name:  

Tam Minh Bui

Comments:  

YEAH KAT!!!!!!!!!!!!

CONGRATULATTIONS INDEED, I know you worked hard for it!

   
Feb 8th 2007 at 08:10:27 PM
Name:  

Schu (Andrew McCauley)

Comments:  

I swear this is the most I've posted in a day!

Grats Kat!!!! Aussie Aussie Aussie! Oi! Oi! Oi!

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Feb 8th 2007 at 07:40:11 PM
Name:  

Katrina Cassar

Best expert:  

75 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.........!!

Best intermediate:  

21

Best beginner:  

2

Comments:  

[14:34] * Kat Last flagging exp: 75.824s rk 1 - 155@2.072 rk 34 - OBV=156.13@2.087, IOE=0.552, RQP=36.595 - 3.76cks/s - 10op, 8isl - 73fl

Rank 1 RQP too..... and a very nice save from a
misplaced flag early on.

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Feb 8th 2007 at 07:07:04 PM
Name:  

Schu (Andrew McCauley)

Best expert:  

LC 3.2 3BV/s on a 218 :(

Comments:  

Dammit. Just a dumb dumb guess. I also got a LC 61 on a 163 today, on a 50/50 though: http://www.minesweeper.info/videoindex.php?dir=&file=LC%2061ona163.mvf

Not the best of days....

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Feb 8th 2007 at 06:54:33 PM
Name:  

Schu (Andrew McCauley)

Comments:  

@ Tam:

"However, the luck involved in getting that "right" board for a beginner 1-second game can also be compared to the luck of getting a board with a nice layout for both intermediate and expert."

I know from chatting with Tam that that kinda came out wrong, but I thought I'd clarify.. in my post before last, I explain a little about the chances of getting a viable record board on each of the levels. Possible beginner record boards are much more rare than intermediate or expert. This is only slightly offset by the fact that you can finish more beginner games in the same time I think.

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Feb 8th 2007 at 06:01:22 PM
Name:  

Tam Minh Bui

Comments:  

I just want to summarize an overall theme that came into my mind after discussing the subject slightly with Schu:

We're all arguing about averages and how luck plays a part into beginner mode and etc etc, but I think intermediate will never be removed simply because it requires consistency to at least complete the board, while beginner is thought of as how well you coodinate your first sporadic couple of clicks. However, the luck involved in getting that "right" board for a beginner 1-second game can also be compared to the luck of getting a board with a nice layout for both intermediate and expert.

That being said, it all really burns down to consistency: How well you can solve through those patterns in intermediate, or how willing you are to actually chase that 1 on beginner. It depends on how prepared your mind is for these opportunities, and all you gotta do is catch it! ;-)

   
Feb 8th 2007 at 05:10:25 PM
Name:  

Schu (Andrew McCauley)

Comments:  

@ AreOut: Incorrect. If you look at the clone rankings at least, you'll see that their top 30% of games is pretty similar with Lucasz being slightly ahead, but that doesn't take into account that if you look at the int page for both players, Lucasz is right at the top of his game very early in his history, where Gregoire has a very gradual improvement, so his recent averages are much much better I imagine.

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Feb 8th 2007 at 04:55:02 PM
Name:  

Schu (Andrew McCauley)

Comments:  

That's quite a post Tommy!

To add to the 15 vs 16 and 1 vs 2 (I think Tommy covered everything else pretty well), well, some games like my NF 16.010 could have, with a bit of luck, been a 15, but really I could hardly have finished it faster. If my time was 16.5 for that game, I'd probably be saying that it couldn't have been a 15. Also, getting a board on which a low score in intermediate is possible takes less tedious effort than getting a board suitable for a 1 second game. As Jason has showed, 49 3BV games are possible. Dion has showed us that even 56 3BV can result in a near-record. And on expert, people get hopsings quite often, and even I have gotten a record on a 177 before. And beginner? Most mere mortals can only consider at the most a 4 3BV (and most commonly a 3) for getting a 1. I've never gotten a record on anything bigger than a 5. Clearly this is a smaller sub-section of games to choose from, meaning you are relying more on luck and persistence than on skill to get a beginner record.

I would say that in general, but not neccesarily, a 1 second difference in intermediate means greater skill for the lower player (especially in the case of 10 vs 11) however I see getting a 1 vs 2 has much more to do with luck and persistence, and little to do with skill- anyone on the BE should be able to do it. Don't get me wrong though, Tams 17 1's are very impressive and even with as many games as he's played it speaks highly of his skill to get a 1 for nearly every 1000 games (probably more recently).

In summary, yes WP, maybe you can say that 15 vs 16 and 2 vs 1 comes down to "could have been with a little luck", but in most cases, the luck involved for expert and intermediate has more to do with "if I'd done this or flagged that or blah blah" but for beginner it has so much more to do with what board you get - in expert and intermediate, getting a board that is viable for a record is muuuuuch more frequent.

Nice one Jason K! I'll be updating it tomorrow morning hopefully.

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Feb 8th 2007 at 04:44:00 PM
Name:  

AreOut

Comments:  

"Remember what AreOut wrote earlier about oli having better averages than tam?"

Well I also remember it, I also remember that Lukasz has 14 on int while Detrusor has 11 and guess what Im pretty sure that Lukasz has better avg time... and difference is 3 seconds while on beginner its that 1 second you are arguing about

   
Feb 8th 2007 at 04:00:14 PM
Name:  

Thomas

Comments:  

I forgot, nice game jason!!!

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Feb 8th 2007 at 03:59:05 PM
Name:  

Thomas

Best expert:  

AR 51

Best intermediate:  

AR 15

Best beginner:  

3bvs/s: 5,2x-->5,77

Comments:  

first of all, grats on the 38 Dion! What you're doing is seriously extending the range of what I believe is possible, keep up the good work!!!

@3bvs/s record: I got that after a couple of games I played at a friend's place to kill time while he had to do something, I'll link the vid soon (and yes, as soon as I get round to it, I will upload a couple of vids to my minesweeper.info directory, the reason I haven't done this yet is that I only go online with ubuntu on my new laptop and keep forgetting to put some vids into the share partition, meaning that I can't access them when I'm online.
So no offense damien!)

@Beginner discussion:
To quote WP:
@Thomas: Beginner doesn't deteriorate the ranking any more than the luck on the other levels do.

What makes you say that?
I guess that you could say that I didn't provide a reason when I originally wrote that beginner detoriates the ranking, so here is my explanation why I believe that that is the case:
Remember what AreOut wrote earlier about oli having better averages than tam?
Well, you should think that a player who can acchieve better results on 99% of all boards should be better in the rankings, wouldn't you? (No offense tam BTW )
Therefore, a beginner score is not an accurate representation of skill, and as anything that contributes to the rank of a player in a ranking that is not a (relatively) accurate representation of what the ranking is supposed to show detoriates the ranking, beginner scores detoriate minesweeper rankings.

About beginner being not more of a tutorial than the other levels, on beginner you can improve your reflexes, and on expert you can improve your reflexes, your pattern recognition, your efficiency, your long-term clicking endurance, your error quote, ...
See what I am talking about?
I call beginner a tutorial because a lot of factors that make the game interesting are missing in it, because it is much easier to solve than the other levels, and because newbs don't have problems solving it. A lot less people would play minesweeper if it weren't for beginner, as the higher levels are too challenging, and as you cant lose as much time or energy on a blast when you play beginner. Without beginner, the minesweeper learning curve would be extremely steep.
But do you honestly think that is has any other pourpose? Hey, the name says it all. It's for beginners. In my opinion, we shouldn't be arguing about beginner being a tutorial, but about intermediate being a level only for intermediate players. Yes, the logical next step to my previous argument is that you could say that as we all are experts, all we need is expert.
I am pretty sure that I can remember hearing sweepers tell me that they would think that intermediate ought to be bumped off the rankings.
That is not to say that I agree with that stance.
I agree with what schu said below:
I would say intermediate is never considered for removal because it is nigh on impossible to solve intermediate by pure chance, whereas many people have finished beginner without even truly looking at the board, just random clicking.

And I would add my own reason:
Intermediate is a LOT closer to expert, than to beginner, even if beg and int have the same density. Consider the following:
an int board has exactly the quarter of the size of an int board, whereas exp is not even twice the size of an int board. also, the mine number difference, if not as extreme, is much closer between intermediate and expert.
That jump from int to expert significantly changes the feel of the game (as viewed from the perspective of a pro):
*It makes the game non-trivial
*On beginner, players can happily blast away until they finish a game quickly. Therefore, starting with int, the player needs to keep a certain level of control.
*and a lot of other stuff that all falls into the same category as the first point here.

Also, consider the areas of expertise needed or all levels. They are basically the same for int and exp, some being more or less important for one of the two, but all are present, whereas in beginner, we have the need for good reflexes and basic pattern recognition. When I start playing again after a long break, I dont feel like I'm playing minesweeper until I start playing int or exp.
It's int and exp I don't get back into immediately as well, I can play up to my usual standard on beginner off the bat.
You could argue that int still has its own playing atmosphere that is different from expert, but that is the result of a recombination of the importances of the techniques needed on it, not of the elimination of the necessity most of them.

And @ Tam, I increased my reflexes a lot by playing expert too, along with many other things. I do not deny that beg may be a better level to train reflexes on, maybe the fact that I almost never play beginner is the cause for my style mainly consisting of efficiency, and it is very likely that beginner will be the place I will go if I am in need of a review of my weaknesses. As a matter of fact, I've done it before - I played only beginner for hal a week preceding a BK meeting with christoph, and had it not been for the meeting (which was not the reason for me deciding to play beginner then) I probably would have finiched what I started and completed the "Beginner only" week that I had planned.
Yes, of course it's a game mode. It's the tutorial mode! Even it's not what it is oficially refered to.

And I am not trying to discount you 17 ones here. It is very impressive, and I am not saying that there was no skill involved in getting them. And I wouldnt actually say that there was a lot of luck involved, I imagine that with 20000+ beg games you probably get not muchmore or less good boards than is probable.
But 20000+ games also speak of a lot of persistence.

And @ WPs argument about 15s being better than 16s:
Even though we know that a player with a 16 can be a better player than someone who has a 15, on average and most of the time the player who has the 15 will be a better int player than the player with the 16... Yes, it's not perfect, but what ranking system is?

And, last but not least, thanks for your encouragement schu!

VC=5TEY

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Feb 8th 2007 at 02:15:59 PM
Name:  

Jason K.

Best expert:  

61.23-->57.16

Comments:  

ONE MINUTE BARRIER!! Finally I can breathe a sigh of relief. Vid linked.

Oh, and Dion: Holy crap!

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Feb 8th 2007 at 12:53:24 PM
Name:  

WP

Comments:  

@Thomas: Beginner doesn't deteriorate the ranking any more than the luck on the other levels do.

On the whole, I agree with what Tam said (except of course that I'm against taking away beginner)

Schu said: I would consider the skill required to improve from 16 to 15 more considerable than that to improve from a 2 to a 1.

Why? If someone gets a 16 on intermediate, we could say that with a bit of luck it would have been a 15. Same for beginner.

If you call beginner a tutorial level because it helps improve reflexes, you might as well call expert a tutorial level because it helps improve pattern recognition! Beginner is not a tutorial level any more than the other levels.

I can see the point in adding stats and rankings, 'cos different people might want to compare different things, but I can see no point throwing beginner out of the rankings.

And last but not least: Wow, Dion! Congrats!

   
Feb 8th 2007 at 10:35:45 AM
Name:  

Jake

Best expert:  

39

Comments:  

go dion!!! way to pick up a syndrome... don't rest until you get a 33!

   
Feb 8th 2007 at 09:04:08 AM
Name:  

AreOut

Comments:  

And all in all having 1 on beginner is kind of prestige and Schu you will get many 3 3bv and some 2 3bv boards if you play whole day but yeah you need patience to play beginner whole day (TAM!)

   
Feb 8th 2007 at 09:00:33 AM
Name:  

Schu (Andrew McCauley)

Comments:  

@ Damien: Metacafe actually offers $5 for every 1,000 views after that video has passed the 20,000 views mark. That would mean this video $400 which I'm sure anyone would find handy! I imagine youtube would price competitively to attract people away from metacafe.

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Feb 8th 2007 at 08:54:31 AM
Name:  

Schu (Andrew McCauley)

Comments:  

Whoa Dion! Way to do the first sub-40 of the year!

I've heard about the youtube paying thing... could be a nice windfall for Dion, with maybe a nice cut for the IMC?! Interesting thoughts.

Anyways, I'm going to upload that and your first 39 about now.

@ Tam: I guess my biggest problem with beginner is that basically anyone in the best-ever list is capable of getting a 1 if they want it bad enough and keep trying, without needing to improve their skill. I see it as pretty irrelevant to rankings. I'd be far more interested in any kind of specialist beginner ranking, because at least then it isn't all about whether I went from a 2.13 on a 4 to a 1.987 on a 3 or not. It is an insignificant difference number-wise, but it hits that integer mark, so apparently it matters.

REMINDER!!!

AR will be updated this week, if you see this, submit your scores now!

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Feb 8th 2007 at 07:58:37 AM
Name:  

damien

Comments:  

Metacafe.com offers $5 for every 20,000 views. YouTube says they will start offering money in a few months. (Dion! You could be rich! Oh...38 is getting boring)

   
Feb 8th 2007 at 07:28:14 AM
Name:  

Dion Tiu

Best expert:  

38x3

Comments:  

Wow, thats pretty hot
Heres a new one for you to upload Schu haha. No way im retiring like this now.

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Feb 8th 2007 at 06:55:54 AM
Name:  

Tam Minh Bui

Comments:  

First of all: Holy crap @ the amount of views!

Secondly, I know my intermediate mode analogy was extremely skewed even when I typed it, but I was trying to make a quick example of a person’s approximation of another player’s skill. One could assume that they are terrible at intermediate, but that is probably not the case. I’m pretty sure that they have had plenty of sub-14 estimates, but always meet an unfortunate fate in the end and blast the board whenever they get the opportunity to set a new record.

I guess the whole thing about beginner being considered a tutorial mode is all about perspective. To me, I always considered a tutorial as a run-through of how to play the game and learn the gist of what’s going on. The only reason I don’t consider beginner a tutorial is because I have made significant improvement from playing beginner alone, and I always experiment with my double-clicking and style from time to time using this mode. I know this can be considered a biased point of view since many other people don’t play beginner too often.


Like I said before, I wouldn’t mind it too much if beginner were removed. In fact, I’d just follow suit and accept it. If the general population of the minesweeper community considers it the best solution, then do so; I’m not here to hinder anyone from gaining the ranking they deserve.

   
Feb 8th 2007 at 05:20:43 AM
Name:  

Schu

Comments:  

BTW, Dions old 38 vid is now over 100,000 views, and at 4 1/2 stars rating, with 88 people rating it!

This means it gets more views than all the other videos I've uploaded combined!

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Feb 8th 2007 at 05:16:19 AM
Name:  

Schu (Andrew McCauley)

Comments:  

@ Jake: exactly what Thomas said, I consider getting a beginner 1 to have far more to do with luck and persistence than skill. I don't consider it hard to do. Just that it has little correlation with the players skill.

@ WP: I don't say that beginner is lousy or useless or anything. Beginner will always have some kind of ranking I imagine, so long as someone is interested enough in beginner to make one (and seemingly even Thomas would be interested in that, as am I), but, to take your example, I would consider the skill required to improve from 16 to 15 more considerable than that to improve from a 2 to a 1. And beginner is in the game, sure, but WHICH beginner? 8x8 or 9x9? And as Thomas said, it's the tutorial level.

Tam: I agree with just about everything you say. Even my 1 sec game wasn't pure luck, but it was extremely fortunate to get a 3 3BV game, not blast or miss the opening, and to get the 50/50 right.

But it is a tutorial level, even by your own example - you improved your reflexes using it.

I would say intermediate is never considered for removal because it is nigh on impossible to solve intermediate by pure chance, whereas many people have finished beginner without even truly looking at the board, just random clicking.

Oli surely could, he has great 3BV values for his low 2s games. But in response to this, I would say, what would be more exciting? Him getting a 1 like everyone else, or him getting a 10 or a 38? I think we all know the answer to that. 1 second games are fairly boring in the rankings, everyone who has one is a world record holder. Taking it out of the rankings allows some freedom to beginner enthusiasts to make rankings with some actual interest, like 3BV/s records, best time on a sup-5 3BV, anything like that.

@ Thomas: keep fighting the good fight!

@ Prince: I'd call that flagging, not that it matters. By the way, I'm more proud of my 2.64 on an 8 (flagging- and I did chord) than my 1.987 on a 3 by far!

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Feb 8th 2007 at 12:20:02 AM
Name:  

joni

Comments:  

btw, Congrats Jason, you're improving really fast

   
Feb 8th 2007 at 12:15:12 AM
Name:  

joni

Best beginner:  

2

Comments:  

Prince, there are so many rankings these guys have invented, that it's impossible to keep track of more than half of them

Actually, as Elmar said a few posts ago, only two categories are considered for records: classic (meaning best time ever no matter if flagging or NF) and NF only, of which Rogen gave a definition. Your game is definitely a flagging game, but we don't have separate records for Flagging only games (basically because most classic WR are done flagging at least a few cells)

On the other hand, one can argue that Arbiter saves high scores for flagging games separately (IMO that's just Rilian trying to invent new standards), and, since begginners records are NF, there might be someone who has tried to keep track of the best flagging performance. Not that it would make much sense, but most of the other records don't make either so why not . maybe Tam has a better answer to that

   
Feb 8th 2007 at 12:02:16 AM
Name:  

Jason K.

Best intermediate:  

18.15-->17.69

Comments:  

On a 36. Should have been a 16, I played this pretty brutally, but oh well. I'll take it!

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Feb 7th 2007 at 08:12:57 PM
Name:  

Prince

Best intermediate:  

20

Best beginner:  

2

Comments:  

My flag on beginner was not accidental. I did it for the sole pupose of getting a flag time record. I did not double click the flag, I just marked it so clone would recognize it. It may have slowed me down, but did it? I would have been faster not doing it at all, but I was faster doing it that way than double clicking it, I think. I think that this should be counted as a flagging game, because I purposely place the flag, but you only know that because I told you, so by just watching, how would you catorgorize it?
I unfortunately don't have the video (or any for that matter) but that is another story. But, its not like you guys don't know what I'm talking about.
What if the same thing happened but the time ended being the flagging beginner world record? Is it a flagging record? I don't even know if such a record is recorded, but you guys make good arguments that are fun to read. If this is bringing up an already settled argument, the don't respond.

   
Feb 7th 2007 at 05:47:20 PM
Name:  

Tam Minh Bui

Comments:  

I think the idea of a beginner ranking would be fantastic, and I wouldn’t really argue if the day came for it to be removed from the rankings either. I do, however, have a problem with the arguments that condescend on the mode itself.

My first one was a 1.10 second on a very lucky 2 board, and I knew from there on that I was not going to improve the time, but I kept playing anyway for the sake of enjoyment. At the point of 20,000+ games, the amount I am at today, I have 17 x 1. Have every single one of my efforts been due to sheer luck? I would like to think not, and you can make a judgment for yourself if you ever care to watch through my videos.

Beginner is obviously not the best choice to broaden your pattern recognition, but it is not impossible to improve from just playing beginner as well. I don’t understand why you’re calling it a tutorial, Thomas; it is an actual MODE. Of course beginner is going to take a short time, there is only so long that an 8x8 board can be left unsolved. I’ve increased my reflexes so much from playing beginner, and I really think that this is where I get most of my improvement. I was never really that good at reading patterns, but I asked for help and players such as Schu and Elmar readily responded to teach me how to think like a professional sweeper. Any newcomers who are truly seeking to improve on the aspects outside of beginner would do the same thing.

And how exactly does it deteriorate an approximation that you are a good player? You can look at Reid or Lukasz’s 14 seconds on intermediate and see that their expert scores are amazing. But for some reason, it is inappropriate to argue for intermediate to be removed, whereas it is not for beginner.

I honestly believe that Oli can get a 1 if he wanted to, considering your argument that almost any new player can do it. He is more experienced than they are, and the probability of that right board coming along won’t weigh him down forever. But I admit: the wait can be frustrating.

(FYI, my beginner time average is 5.88, and my 3bv/s average is 3.36)

   
Feb 7th 2007 at 03:17:27 PM
Name:  

Thomas

Comments:  

Yes, it's in the game, but it's the tutorial :P
It's what you play when you learn the game, it's the neccesary intro, but in my opinion that is not reason enough to include it in the rankings.
And how many people find the community when they don't have relatively good int/exp times already? I can remember that I played almost only exp even when I was far sup100 there.
I would guess that we do the average newb a favor if we kick beginner out, players are gonna focus on getting better on the levels where they can gain seconds instead of improving marginally on beginner and getting frustrated with it.
And yes, you can't determine exactly how good a player is from the ranking, but you get a pretty good approximation, and beginner detoriates it.

And beginner is the most retarded level. Even if you don't find it retarded, it is definetly more retarded than int or exp (I hope everyone agrees with me on this point), making it the most retarded of the three. (Unless you regard custom levels, cus has the potential to be more retarded. I wonder what the degree of retardedness for the average custom board is :D)
Honestly, on most beginner games you dont even need a single complex pattern once you've opened up an opeining.
That is what I call retarded.
Of course, It's great to start playing. I remember liking beginner once.
But that was when I had sth like 270 exp.
@Jake:
I dont think that schu meant to say that beginner was difficult, just that it is pretty **** tedious to get a one because of the sheer improbability of getting a suitable board.

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Feb 7th 2007 at 01:31:51 PM
Name:  

WP

Comments:  

Beginner should be in the rankings for the simple reason that it is in the game.

The ranking can never purely show a player’s skill anyway, can we really say that someone with a 15 on intermediate is a better player than someone with a 16?

Another way of looking at it:
Do you want to attract newbies or not? Beginner is the level that newcomers usually manage to improve quickly. Now you’re telling them that it’s lousy and improving it means nothing. And when there’s no point improving beginner, and “good” intermediate and expert times seem so far away, less people will consider trying.

And: Stop calling beginner the most retarded level!! It’s the most fundamental level, more like it. ;) (not that I like it anyway :P)

   
Feb 7th 2007 at 10:34:31 AM
Name:  

Jake

Best beginner:  

1 on a 7

Comments:  

congrats, Schu, you're the first person ever to ***** and/or moan that tard is too difficult.

I think that a 3bv minimum of 6 or 10 or something would do wonders to make tard a "real level".

even for 3bv/s. I present to you one Cowman :P

   
Feb 7th 2007 at 10:04:02 AM
Name:  

Thomas

Comments:  

Not neccesarily.
I almost never play beginner, and I managed to take second place in the beginner session even though I wasn't even a sub60 player then and there were two more sub50 players there (beside damien, who beat me).
OK, those were beginner legs, that is true.
But bear in mind that what you read in the rankings is not the average time of a player. It is the best time.
So what youre saying is that even though oli is better than tam as he has a better average his score is worse.

And the ranking is supposed to show the skill of a player.

And yes, reflexes are important. But not everything on the higher levels, especially if you play efficiently, whereas to get a good beginner score you need almost only reflexes.
Getting a one is a pretty brainless excercise. I'd bet that you could get almost anyone to get a 1 within a couple of weeks if you show him how and do it right. Someone from my school managed to get ones on 2 3bv boards that were 8*8 with 1 mine without prior training. Mouse handling is not the issue, I got down to 1,4 and he got down to 1,5, for which probably my reflexes were the cause and not the difference in mouse control.

I'm pretty sure that anyone who does not usually sweep could do it, and I do not think that these people would be a lot better at minesweeper after getting the 1.

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Feb 7th 2007 at 04:26:54 AM
Name:  

AreOut

Comments:  

I strongly disagree even I still dont have that one. It should stay in rankings.

Bear in mind that Olis avg beg time is probably faster than Tams(so in tourney where 3 best would count Oli would probably be better), but Tam has played much more games. And beginner is more about reflexes (which are IMO quite important part of minesweeper, at least for me).

   
Feb 7th 2007 at 02:30:04 AM
Name:  

Thomas

Best beginner:  

2,44

Comments:  

I absolutely agree with you schu!!!
Anyway, who misses beginner in the AR?
I don't. and I don't think many other players do.
This is one of the reasons I actually was for a decimalranking!
One place we still need beginner though is tournaments, I think that 10-beginner-legs are too fun too leave out, besides, 10-beginner-legs aren't about being fast, they're about psychology
But otherwise I agree with you 100%!
Do other professional gamers compete for who can complete the tutorial of a game in the least possible amount of time?
If you think it's fun to complete a game on its most retarded level, I say do so, but please don't make everyone participate by putting it into the world ranking.
I guess beginner is neccesary for beginners. And that is just about it.

And yeah, I know that just about now people will be starting to post about how hard they worked to get their one, and how it's unfair that they had to do it and everyone else does not.
With that attitude, you might as well say that we all are to use old mice with balls because players earlier on didnt have better mice. Or that Clones shouldn't have any advanced options and should just provide winmine gameplay with enhanced security and validations.
They didn't have 3bv counters in 2000, why should we be able to know how good a board we got is?
Generally speaking, an improvement will always put those who lived earlier at a disadvantage.
In my opinion the argument that conditions should not be improved as a tribute to those who had to acchieve something earlier and under more difficult conditions is not relevant.
If we take this further, we would find ourselves in the stone age, why should we enjoy the life standard we have today if people in the stone age didn't have it?
It's the same argument, with the slight difference that those who could argue the point are dead now. If anyone thinks that that makes a difference, I'd be interested to hear what they think is different about it.

So please don't post something like "I worked hard for my beginner score, everyone else should have to do the same or suck up the one additional second in the ranking".

You could argue that beginner is a part of the game, but almost every game has a tutorial, in minesweeper it's called "beginner".
No gamer takes the tutorial of his game seriously. In our case, the tutorial is something you can arguably play competitively. But I still dont think that it should be part of the world ranking, because the luck involved in perfecting a beginner score is IMO far too high.

Look at Oli. Would anyone here say that a good beginner score is a representation of skill? I wouldn't.
I would say that a good beginner score is a representation of beginner skill, and also of considerable luck and probably patience. But giving it a place in the world ranking seems very strange to me.
Who needs it?
I've said this before, but isn't the AR a better place without it?

VC=ASK5

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Feb 6th 2007 at 11:17:04 PM
Name:  

Alexander Morgan

Comments:  

Thanks for the help. It will be a little while before I get any better videos up on youtube though. I am Welsh but currently in New Zealand and soon I will be in Sydney for 10 months. There I should get a computer and upload some videos.

   
Feb 6th 2007 at 09:44:22 PM
Name:  

Nathan

Best expert:  

79 (NF)

Best intermediate:  

21 (NF)

Best beginner:  

2 (NF)

Comments:  

79 non-flagging tonight, best ever list is on the horizon.

   
Feb 6th 2007 at 07:07:44 PM
Name:  

Schu (Andrew McCauley)

Comments:  

OK, here's my anti-beginner rant with my new perspective on getting 1 second games.

As some of you know, I was one of those people that got heaps of 2sec games but never a 1 (25 in fact) and now I have one.... just. I know people like Oli and Ace have done even more 2 games before getting a 1 (or in Olis case, still waiting for a 1).

So now I have one. Here's a rundown of how lucky I was:

-I had to get a 3 3BV board, which is surely about 1/1000 chance, especially for one where the 2 non-opening 3BV's are next to each other

-My first click only just hit the opening
-My 2nd and 3rd clicks only just missed a mine (they were wasted clicks)
-My 4th click only just missed a mine
-My last click was a 50/50 (probably the only skillful thing I did in this game, realise that I had to click one or both of those squares in the corner before I'd even done my 4th click).

To top that off, it was only .013 seconds away from being a 2.

But yeah, lots of beginner games are lucky, why should I worry? Well, I don't really like that I gained about 5 places in the rankings just by doing this truly skin-of-the-teeth victory. I mean, I could argue for decimal rankings to improve it but I don't think that will happen .

Other things about beginner are that www.twingalaxies.com completely refuses to track it, whereas they are going to track expert and intermediate for us. The reason for this is that they object to a game where it is possible to get a world record by simply clicking randomly (I believe that actually is the world record at the moment too).

Also, as we all know there's this ridiculous 8x8 vs 9x9 divide. Personally I'd actually like 9x9, because 8x8 is the same density of mines as intermediate, and also allows these wall-50-50 things ALL THE TIME. A basic example of this is where you have a straight wall of 1's in beginner. You can use wall-1-1 to solve 2 squares, but you have to guess eventually no matter what. It is amazingly common and I am annoyed by it all the time. 9x9 doesn't have this problem.

I'm not arguing for a official 9x9 beginner thing. What I'd like to see is beginner removed from the best-ever rankings, and then people are free to make their own rankings, be it 9x9, 8x8, 3BV/s (the only beginner ranking that I consider in any way valuable), most amount of 1's, 2's or whatever, even most games finished in an hour if that's what you're into. Some people like beginner, and some people after they get a good enough time, leave it, or only want a 3BV/s score for their total. I say leave the rankings to the beginner enthusiasts. Just expert and intermediate for me thank you. And maybe a little 9x9 beginner...

Let's see how well this goes down...

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Feb 6th 2007 at 04:07:59 PM
Name:  

Schu (Andrew McCauley)

Best expert:  

UPK 30

Comments:  

@ Alexander: I do all the youtubing here, you can see my channel on www.sweepingmines.com

I used to use snagit, but recently I've been using camstudio, you can make smaller videos with the same quality, it's probably the best free screencap program out there - http://www.camstudio.org/

Yeah, UPK 30 on the same board. Which means sub-30 real time. I'm happy enough with that.

Dions old 38 has 98,000 views, probably has 6 figures already, but it just hasn't been updated.

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Feb 6th 2007 at 03:23:26 PM
Name:  

Robbie

Best expert:  

75.7 -> 75.4

Comments:  

Ugh, only improved by .3 seconds.
75.4 NF on a 136 board, video attached

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Feb 6th 2007 at 02:25:39 PM
Name:  

Elmar

Comments:  

video: http://www.rapidupload.com/d.php?file=dl&filepath=24517

   
Feb 6th 2007 at 11:40:13 AM
Name:  

Elmar

Best expert:  

UPK: 27->22.09

Comments:  

Your turn, Schu.

@Alexander: he, we were already wondering who's vid that was. the best way is probably to use a screen capturing software like camtasia for example.

   
Feb 6th 2007 at 11:08:47 AM
Name:  

Alexander Morgan

Comments:  

I have a minesweeper video on youtube,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iSDf4gcO6U4

But I was wondering how to get a good quality video up there rather than just filming the clone video with a camera. Any help would be appreciated.

   
Feb 6th 2007 at 04:48:07 AM
Name:  

Tam Minh Bui

Best expert:  

3.39 -> 3.41

Comments:  

Slow improvement on expert! Landed a nice 60.66 on a 204 board, my playing style was very slow in this game in order to control the mouse.

:)

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Feb 6th 2007 at 12:32:43 AM
Name:  

Thomas

Comments:  

Great work on the new page damien!!!
I discovered one rather annoying bug though:
My firefox renders the "Go" button in the same line as the list when it is not selected, but if I move my mouse over it, appearantly the difference in size is enough to send it off into a new line, where it unselects itself again, gets smaller, and goes back to where it started. In effect, it flaches back and forth between the two states.
It is possible to press it, but it is kinda annoying.

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Feb 5th 2007 at 10:37:31 PM
Name:  

Rogen

Best intermediate:  

NF 3BV/s 4.091 --> 4,188

Comments:  

22.01 on 3BV 88

Watch out Dennis! I'm closer you've ever imagined in worst dreams 12.92 NF total against mine 12.91

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Feb 5th 2007 at 06:43:18 PM
Name:  

Schu (Andrew McCauley)

Comments:  

Check out website: dions old 38 made it to the front page of digg videos! That would account for the 14,000 views it's gotten in 24 hours!

Thanks for the congrats everyone!

Damien, that looks really awesome, I'm going to e-mail you now with details.

About flag-NF thing, the rule should be simple. I think there are only 2 possibilities: either the way it is (left-clicks only) or have it so no flags are used at all (not allowed to flag and unflag).

Banzhaf, I believe the unofficial rules for clicking is that you have to be able to do it with a regular mouse with no software, which means left, right and middle (or scroll wheel) do their usual functions. The only exception to this is probably for left-handers (just change a windows setting).

Also, for example, my mouse (and Thomas' and Knolans), the logitech G5, does not have the scroll wheel assigned to middle-button, so if any of us wanted to use the middle button to chord, it would be allowed for us to use software to fix it. But only to emulate normal mouse behaviour.

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Feb 5th 2007 at 04:55:13 PM
Name:  

Zhang Shen Jia

Comments:  

The directory ./videos/ZhangShenJia/ does not exist.

   
Feb 5th 2007 at 01:58:32 PM
Name:  

Tam Minh Bui

Comments:  

Grats on the 1-second game, Schu!

   
Feb 5th 2007 at 12:18:27 PM
Name:  

damien

Best expert:  

New Videos Uploads

Comments:  

Some of you already use minesweeper/upload for your videos....Joni and I have created a much better version to replace it:

www.minesweeper.info/profiles.php

If you visit a player profile and click 'Video', you will see their videos. You can log-in and upload or delete your own videos at the same place. Every player who is world ranked will get their own folder.

Just send me a username and password so I can give you permission.

(This site is still new...there are only a fewq pages. I made tournament rankings this week).

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Feb 5th 2007 at 11:44:16 AM
Name:  

Thomas

Comments:  

@WP:
Actually it wasn't :D
When I wrote about visual aids, I meant that inexpierienced players very often use flags just to help them solve patterns. And alone seing a flag somewhere can cause a player to suddenly see the solution to a pattern, even if the flag is removed immediately.
I would not want games where flags are placed to be counted as NF games for that reason.
@Banzhaf:
I would say that configuring your mouse to turn right clicks into left clicks is an entirely diferent subject. Having more than one button assigned to one function is (what I'd consider) cheating anyway, so I wouldn't say that we have to discuss it in that context.
And grats on the 1 schu!

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Feb 5th 2007 at 10:54:25 AM
Name:  

Schu (Andrew McCauley)

Best expert:  

58.001

Best intermediate:  

15.23

Best beginner:  

2x25 => 1.987 on a 3!!!

Comments:  

Finally, no more 'tard playing for me! This was meant to be my last game before bed because I was playing bad, and I *just* managed to stick a 1!

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Feb 5th 2007 at 08:32:28 AM
Name:  

WP

Comments:  

Quoting Thomas: I'd be interested if someone disagrees with what I wrote!

Hehe, was that for me? lol

I agree that accidental right-clicks (or double clicks) that do nothing shouldn't make a game considered flagging. I guess we could say the same for accidental flag-placing, though in this case there IS actually a flag, so it kinda bothers me to call it nf. But then again, those are mistakes, and one can also argue that it would be the player's own fault if the game isn't considered nf!

About visual aids...if there's visual aid without flagging, in my opinion it's still nf.

   
Feb 5th 2007 at 05:38:31 AM
Name:  

Banzhaf

Comments:  

"you could argue that you are still NFing" - that's my position
of course it's similar to Elmar's technique concerning its attribute to be possible on winmine, too -> so it should be legal, too.
But I don't want to argue, I just use it for practice.

Generally I think also games where a flag is placed by mistake and immediately removed could be counted as NF... we all see that the player does NF, dont we? and his mistake is a disadvantage for him because it takes time

   
Feb 5th 2007 at 05:19:28 AM
Name:  

Thomas

Comments:  

Well, you don't place a flag if you right-click on an open square, do you? So you could argue that you are still NFing, as you haven't placed a flag...
The reason I would like to extend the rule is that everyone can make a mistake, slip once, and accidentally right-click without affecting the game at all. Should that game count as NF? I think there is no reason why it shouldn't.
You could always see my new proposal as an extension of what rogen just posted, only that we are only looking at clicks that are relevant to the game.

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Feb 5th 2007 at 04:33:35 AM
Name:  

Rogen

Comments:  

My opinion is to consider such way of playing as cheat (similar to Elmar's technique)

   
Feb 5th 2007 at 04:05:08 AM
Name:  

Banzhaf

Comments:  

What is when I configure my mouse to open squares with both left and right click? I use that method to train my ring finger and to get more right-/left-click flexibility.

   
Feb 5th 2007 at 03:41:00 AM
Name:  

Rogen

Comments:  

As I remember at one moment in the past all agreed ( ) to call non-flagging those games which were completed using only left button of mouse. Without flags is the corollary, but nevertheless it gives the title of the method.

   
Feb 5th 2007 at 03:38:22 AM
Name:  

Thomas

Comments:  

I would say that counts as flagging. This isn't the case for pros, I know, but flags are an immense visual aid for newbs, therefore a flag in an NF game can be used as an advantage.
However, does a game count where you right-click on an already open square or accidentally do a chord that opens nothing?
I would say that accidental right-clicks that do not do anything should not make a NF game flagging.
Chords, however, are a problem for me. I have someone in my class who sweeps too, and he uses chords to solve patterns by chording next to numbers to visualize a number's surroundings. I would say that that should be illegal in NF too, as it is also a visual aid, but again, I would say that chords done accidentally in an opening somewhere should not make a game a flagging game.
In general, If I were to formulate a rule as to what counts as flagging and what still is NF, I would formulate it as follows:
Every game where all clicks that have a visual impact on the board are left-clicks counts as a non-flagging game.

I hope my thoughts inspire the IMC
I'd be interested if someone disagrees with what I wrote!

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Feb 5th 2007 at 01:52:56 AM
Name:  

Elmar

Comments:  

@Prince: Of thats's legal. Anyways, there are only specific rankings for non-flagging. The overall rankings include flagging and non-flagging times. A better question would therefore be: If you flag a mine and unflag it later does that count as non-flagging?

   
Feb 4th 2007 at 06:54:30 PM
Name:  

Prince

Comments:  

Has anyone ever flagged a mine on beginner but not double clicked it just to get a flag time? I did that once and got like a 3 so it was my best flagging time, it that legal for records?

   
Feb 4th 2007 at 05:28:12 PM
Name:  

Rob Yee

Best expert:  

80 --> 79

Comments:  

didnt record it, ****.

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Feb 4th 2007 at 05:26:40 PM
Name:  

Tam Minh Bui

Comments:  

100 sup4's on intermediate! 17,90 on a 74 board has the honor of being the 100th game in that range.

:D

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Feb 4th 2007 at 04:35:00 PM
Name:  

Tam Minh Bui

Best expert:  

15.95 RQP

Comments:  

A sub16! 51.65 @ 3.23 3bv/s, ranks 3 and 4 respectively.

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Feb 3rd 2007 at 01:03:42 PM
Name:  

Ian

Best expert:  

57.36 --> 57.20

Comments:  

Cheers Ril! Amusingly I completely forgot about it and was wondering what you were talking about It's linked now anyways

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Feb 3rd 2007 at 11:32:27 AM
Name:  

Rilian

Comments:  

grats w/ new time record Ian

   
Feb 3rd 2007 at 10:23:14 AM
Name:  

Ian

Best expert:  

3.13 --> 3.28 3BV/s

Comments:  

Wahoo! A very cool 216 board came my way and now it's time for a new time record

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