The Authoritative Minesweeper Guestbook

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Viewing Page 22 of 23 (Total Entries: 2239)

Mar 4th 2004 at 02:36:12 PM
Name:  

Marko

Comments:  

Well, one thing that comes to mind... why not have the game generate new boards over and over in short intervals (maybe every second or so) in the time between clicking the smiley and actually making the first click. It would pretty much rended the memory reader useless without putting any extra stress on the clone itself and it shouldn't be very hard to implement. This way the board is generated before you start the game, so there should be no problems with the first click. Feel free to flame...

   
Mar 4th 2004 at 11:41:11 AM
Name:  

Lance

Best expert:  

56

Best intermediate:  

13

Best beginner:  

1

Comments:  

@Detrusor: good point about a person not being able to tell if a screenshot game started at 1 or 0. I agree that "start at 0" option should be a cheat option. I also like the separate menu for recording options idea, having the game to automatically save record screenshots and videos, and being able to set the game to automatically save screenshots/videos for games that are of a particular score/3BV or better as an option.

Also, if Stevan's idea (a very good idea, Stevan) of generating the board after the first click is actually possible and wouldn't require you to completely reprogram the game, it might be worth considering. The problem I see is that if the board isn't layed out until AFTER the first click, what would happen when you make that first click? There would be no mines when you actually make that click. A good idea, but implementation might be very difficult

Good discussions. I might wait to post the poll on whether to accept the clone or not until next week, so that Rodrigo has a chance to make the changes and to consider the suggestions. Happy sweeping, all!

Lance

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Mar 4th 2004 at 11:32:07 AM
Name:  

ravi

Best expert:  

106

Best intermediate:  

25

Best beginner:  

6

Comments:  

what is the best speed for minesweeper on WINDOWS XP...

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Mar 4th 2004 at 10:17:31 AM
Name:  

Stevan

Comments:  

Lasse could you send me your 45 clone vid on mail?!?

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Mar 4th 2004 at 10:04:20 AM
Name:  

Stevan

Comments:  

Dave its getting memory adresses so it works only for XP and 2000 version of winmine, and generating board after first click could get no more than few milliseconds(on todays computers), isnt it so Rodrigo?!?

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Mar 4th 2004 at 09:48:05 AM
Name:  

Dave Matson

Comments:  

@Detrusor: I see now! Its a good idea actually, if you're into that kind of thing. Myself, I just like to keep a video of each record breaking game. I'm kind of an amateur though. I'm sure once I've been playing for longer, I'll want to keep some videos of all my sub-whatevers to help my playing. Good idea, bud!

   
Mar 4th 2004 at 08:55:40 AM
Name:  

Dave Morgan

Comments:  

And about the memory reader - generating the board after the 1st click is a good idea but would propably take too long and be annoying

Rodrigo - have you read the article about that program? I think the website is called code project but I'm not sure. There might be someway to stop it from working.

Also, are the video files encryped? I imagine making an editor for them wouldn't be that difficult (not that easy either though), so maybe encryption is a good idea

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Mar 4th 2004 at 07:56:20 AM
Name:  

Dave Morgan

Comments:  

As far as i can tell, the only file you need is the msvbvm60.dll file you need, I think that the .exe just creates the dll in your system folder - but if anyone knows that this is wrong, please tell me because it'd help in my quest to get the clone to run in linux

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Mar 4th 2004 at 07:40:08 AM
Name:  

Detrusor

Comments:  

So if the otpion is enabled, you don't have the "save video' and "save screenshot" button under your board

If disabled, you have both buttons

   
Mar 4th 2004 at 07:37:52 AM
Name:  

Detrusor

Comments:  

Dave > you did not understood what i suggested (or i did not explain claerly ) I told that i wanted the clone to save all games (both video and screenshot), but ONLY if the game reach the options you have set in the 'record options'. So if you want to only record if you break your record, then set it in options. If you want to save all your sub60's, or all your >2.5 3BV/sec, then set it in the options... I just wanted to put an AUTOMATIC screenshot/video recorder, cause it annoys me to copy, then paste in paint, and then save the file.

Considerating the file name, i suggested time_date_3BV, but that was a suggestion, because, that's the file format i'm using !!

So, i'd like to see in the options these features :
- enable/disable automatic save
- file name type : you can modify it, to include the time, 3BV, date, 3BV/sec...etc (any option you want) in the file name
- save folder for screenshots/videos
- and save conditions : with many options under/over xx 3BV, under/over xx seconds, under/over xx % of completion games, under/over xx 3BV/sec games, etc...

And of course, i suggest to put all this as an OPTION, that you can disable if you want...
I hope i will be fully understood then, and that Dave will agree me

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Mar 4th 2004 at 07:23:09 AM
Name:  

Elmar

Comments:  

....five hundredth....

   
Mar 4th 2004 at 07:22:54 AM
Name:  

Elmar

Comments:  

....five hundredth....

   
Mar 4th 2004 at 07:19:39 AM
Name:  

Elmar

Comments:  

For me for example.....

Just got my 500th (fife-hundreth!!!) sub70, a 58 which should've been at least another 57. I made the mistake of looking at the timer and got nervous when I saw it was at 46...

57x2 58x4 59x3 60x10 61x10 62x13 63x32
64x36 65x48 66x70 67x71 68x89 69x112

I told my friends that I would quit minesweeper if I didn't break my record before hitting 500 sub70s. I hope you guys can keep a secret. I can't stop now, after getting 2 sub60s in 3 days....

   
Mar 4th 2004 at 06:49:50 AM
Name:  

Dave Matson

Comments:  

Hello again, I almost forgot!

I think that it would be a good idea if the clone had the date beside your personal records. Wait, maybe not. For some people, that may be a cruel reminder how long it has been since they last broke their record!

   
Mar 4th 2004 at 06:46:20 AM
Name:  

Dave Matson

Comments:  

@Detrusor: About your option for the clone to save each video. I think that, if anything, that should definitely be an option, not an integral part of the program. I personally don't want the clone to save every single game that I play. I don't need to load up my hard drive with useless videos of crappy times. Some people may want this feature, which is fine, but if included in the clone it should be optional. If people break their personal record, they are going to want to record it in a different folder, with a different file name than time_date_3BV.mf anyway.

Same thing with the screen shots. I don't think that every game should have a screenshot saved to a folder. I do believe, however, that there should be a "Take Screenshot" button at the bottom after a game is over. (Either finished or unfinished).

   
Mar 4th 2004 at 06:24:20 AM
Name:  

Stevan

Comments:  

Detrusor you are talking about game timer, Rodrigo about counters...whats more I would like to see counters in replay video if you understand me Rodrigo, still abou counters, I wanna see them better placed, not one above other but beside, you have whole 80x20 pixels empty for it, and I wanna see multiplayer at least in some other version of program, maybe we could have usual clone and multiplayer clone, I think it is good option.

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Mar 4th 2004 at 06:20:21 AM
Name:  

Stevan

Comments:  

Rodrigo I think there is a good way to make memory readers impossible to use. And that way is : dont generate board after pressing F2, but after first click...simple as that, am I genius, am I ?!?

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Mar 4th 2004 at 06:05:26 AM
Name:  

Elmar

Comments:  

Just missed an estimated 55 after 49secs.

   
Mar 4th 2004 at 03:52:21 AM
Name:  

Dion

Best expert:  

48 -> 47

Comments:  

OMG FINALLLLY, Im excessively happy
3BV of 144
3.06 3BV/s
47.98
I switched my resolution to 800x600 seeing if it was any different and it definately paid off.

http://diontiu.tripod.com/47.txt

   
Mar 4th 2004 at 03:51:41 AM
Name:  

Dave Morgan

Comments:  

There was/is a minesweeper clone called minesweeper 2000, i think it was hosted on geocities, which had some nice features like you could make it always open at least 10% (or maybe it was 5) of the board on your first click, and you could set it so that you couldn't die on a guess if there was nothing else you could have done (this included flagging mines so not overly helpful).

But one of the best features was that it automatically took a screenshot if you beat your best time. I think that that would be a cool feature, as mentioned, and also a take screenshot option/button, that would take a screenshot and save it without having top copy and paste into paint. Preferably it would automatically use the .png format because it gives quite small files (in some cases even samller tha a tiff) with much less loss in quality than compression formats like jpg/tiff/etc

About the timer - its not the size thats the problem, its the spacing between the lines, and also the relative brightness of "on" lines to "off" lines. Open winmine and your clone next to each other and you should be able to see what we mean

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Mar 4th 2004 at 02:42:39 AM
Name:  

Traian

Comments:  

I've been reading all the posts, especially the ones regarding the sweet clone... And I'm anxiously expecting for it to get official.
Unfortunately, I'm not able at the moment to play that much, because my mouse became so messy, it's almost impossible to play a decent game.
@Detrusor: excellent suggestions! If Rodrigo will implement what you said, it will be great. I can't wait to get my hands on a decent mouse and "get on down"
OK, so keep up the really really good work Rodrigo, and everybody with brilliant ideas post every suggestion you can imagine. I'm sure the clone will soon become The Ultimate Minesweeper Game.
Bye.

   
Mar 4th 2004 at 02:30:30 AM
Name:  

Jon S

Best expert:  

2.82 3BV/sec

Comments:  

Improved my best 3BV/sec for expert again. I think it was a 197 3BV-board or something. I haven't tried Rodrigo's clone yet, but I guess I'll do that soon now. If it has advantages (and no major disadvantages) over the original Minesweeper, I think it should be made the standard for WR-times and rankings. Until everything is worked out and "finalised", I think the original should still be the standard. I also think the Active Ranking should keep accepting scores on the original until (at least) the end of the 2004-season.

   
Mar 4th 2004 at 02:09:49 AM
Name:  

Detrusor

Comments:  

I forgot to say that all the record options i mentionned should be placed under a "record options" menu which would contain all video and screenshots options : record folder, file format name, and all record restrictions (cf under), and maybe some other options that someone else can suggest

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Mar 4th 2004 at 02:07:02 AM
Name:  

Detrusor

Comments:  

I just wanted to talk about 2 features that i would be pleased to see in the clone :

- i think the option "timer starts at zero" should be a cheat option, because you can't know if a screenshot (not a video) has been made with or without this option...

- Rodrigo told that the "record video" option would be automatically checked. But you must always click on record video to record it. Could it be possible to add an option that allow to ALWAYS record the video, and AUTOMATICALLY save it without doing it ? For example, it saves the video in a folder THAT YOU CAN CHOSE in the options, with a file format like time_date_3BV.mvf
I think this last feature would be very nice... If you add such an option, it would be also great if you could chose which videos you want to save automatically : all, all finished, all >70% finished, all under a certain time, high 3BV/sec, etc...
(if possible, i would be very happy if you added the same automatic saves, but with screenshots ! with the same restrictions you've set in the options (all games, all finished etc...), and with a file name like time_date_3BV.jpg) This could avoid me doing that each time i make a sub100, high 3BV/sec, etc...

What do you all think about that ?

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Mar 3rd 2004 at 07:08:29 PM
Name:  

Rodrigo

Comments:  

Ok, people, I didn't have time to check the posts during the whole day, and now I found a great list of requests... I made a summary. Please correct it if there is something missing:

* Give the game a "final" version.
* Save videos of high-scores automatically.
* In legal mode, make the "Record video" option always set.
* Add Top-Ten time and 3BV/s lists to the History window.
* Check decompilation and cheating.
* Kind of links for the top-ten videos.
* Add a way to personalise the videos.
* Add a kind of correctly flagged mines counter.
* Check for patterns/repeated boards.
* Assign videos to be opened when double-clicked.
* Correct red numbers to be shown more clearly.
* Add clicks per second counters.
* Check usage of Minesweeper Memory Reader.
* Correct difference between estimated and actual times.
* Enable MSVBVM60.EXE for download.

Exceptionally this week I am not having many free time to make updates. But I will try to implement all these features until the weekend, probably. And some comments:

Manu suggested to make bigger numbers for the counters. Someone suggested it before and I already did it. I believe they are the same size as Sorin's counter. I don't think it is necessary to make them even bigger.

Detrusor and some others said that there is a difference sometimes between the estimated and actual times. I played literally hundreds of games and it didn't happen to me. I'm getting very curious about it and would like that, if it happens to someone, please e-mail me a screenshot, preferrably followed by the corresponding video.

Stephen said the file msvbvm60.exe is necessary. I did a quick search on the internet and found one on http://www.sponkosoft.de/download/common/msvbvm60.exe . But I will upload it to the site, anyway.

About the usage of Memory Readers, I think that it will be always possible to know the mines' positions using programs like that, because there is no other place to store this information unless the computer memory. Even like that, I will try to make it more "difficult" to be found. I believe this kind of program should be banned from the internet. All of its copies should be deleted! There are still no programs able to get the positions from my clone and is important that this is not stimulated.

About the timer question, I compared my clone's timer to my watch and found absolutely no difference. This question is starting to make me think about giving more importance for times achieved with my clone. But my indecision is simply based on the fact that both the time lag and the 2-second-jump problems that exist in the MS version is absolutely UNFAIR. There is no way to agree that is is fair. But I still think that MS version should be still used. Still. Maybe I can change my opinion after thinking a little bit more.

And finally, I think that I will give the game the "final" status after doing the above implements. Once I finish it, I will annouce here for everybody to check out. I seems that the Special Thanks list is increasing a lot!!

Thanks a lot for the support again, guys!
Rodrigo.

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Mar 3rd 2004 at 03:55:24 PM
Name:  

Dave Matson

Comments:  

If the clone is the only way to ensure that all times are standardized, regardless of which OS is used or other programs that are running, shouldn't we use that? I understand that by using winmine one might get lower scores, but that doesn't seem important if everyone isn't on the same playing field. In a sense, that gives advantages to some, while disadvantages others. What do you guys think?

   
Mar 3rd 2004 at 02:26:01 PM
Name:  

Marko

Comments:  

I figured that much. But obviously something has to be done about that. I'll still be using the clone as i'm on XP and the difference is next to nothing. But like you said, it could keep people from using it. So, let's hear some suggestions.

   
Mar 3rd 2004 at 02:14:33 PM
Name:  

Manu

Comments:  

Thing is that Rodrigo's clone has THE good time, but MS version timer is too slow. That is not something new, it has already been discussed many times here. The delay depends on the Windows version and on the PC configuration ( if other programs are running at the same time or not... ). As far as I can remember, the average delay is 3-5% on most PC with Win98 and 0.5% for XP.

   
Mar 3rd 2004 at 01:49:22 PM
Name:  

Marko

Comments:  

I only noticed a difference of 0.5s between both timers after a 400s run. Which is nowhere near 5%. But then again, I never do anything to influence the timer. How can we decide what the right speed for the timer is? It obviously varies from pc to pc (or should i say load to load).

   
Mar 3rd 2004 at 01:40:54 PM
Name:  

Stevan

Comments:  

Yeah, Lasse' 41 vid actually is 43s in windows media player...

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Mar 3rd 2004 at 01:25:42 PM
Name:  

Gustaf

Comments:  

How do I get the Sorin Counter started?

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Mar 3rd 2004 at 01:09:46 PM
Name:  

Manu

Comments:  

Even with the 0.63 version, there's still a lag after hitting a bomb or the smiley... any idea ??
Another thing : don't you think that the fact that the clone timer is 3-5% faster than the original's could encourage people to keep the MS version, if it is still allowed, just to keep a 2 sec. advantage ( for a 50 sec game ). Lasse's 45 could have been a 43 on the MS version, for exemple.

   
Mar 3rd 2004 at 01:06:47 PM
Name:  

Detrusor

Comments:  

Case > that's what i've done... but i expected that it would play the vid with only the double click. Nevermind

A guy on my site told me a possible update that could be done in next versions : a progress bar for the video, allowing to move cursor into the video, if you want to see only the end of the vid for example.

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Mar 3rd 2004 at 11:40:25 AM
Name:  

Case

Comments:  

if you do what i said then it will set the folder that the clone shows when u go to play video to the folder of the video you were trying to open. so it saves you from having to search the file i guess.

   
Mar 3rd 2004 at 11:36:52 AM
Name:  

Case

Comments:  

it wont auto-play the video though

   
Mar 3rd 2004 at 11:35:26 AM
Name:  

Case

Comments:  

Detrusor, to make the minesweeper clone open your videos by doubleclick:
1. double click one of the videos
2. now it should bring up a list of programs that you might want to open the file with (if you're on windows XP, you would now pick: "Select the program from a list")
3. Now a list of programs is up, make sure to enable the "Always use the selected program to open this kind of file" option.
4. Now click the Browse button and find the Minesweeper clone and hit OK.

Now it should always open files of that type with the clone.

   
Mar 3rd 2004 at 11:20:34 AM
Name:  

Stevan

Comments:  

I vote for accepting it, why not, about minesweeper reader I've tried it with original minesweeper and I've read something about it. It gets mine positions from memory, so for good programmer it would be "piece of cake" to convert it to clone, but every minesweeper game could be cheated that way

About solver...I'm advancing

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Mar 3rd 2004 at 10:22:53 AM
Name:  

Lasse Nyholm

Comments:  

I would like the clone, to be more of a "final" version before the scores is accepted for WR - just to make sure that there'll be no major changes of the clone after the official accept. But off course we could just take back the accept if a major change happened. So I guess we might as well accept it already - I personally think it works fine, I got a nice 45 earlier today

It would just be nice if it had some sort of finished-ness about it, before the grand acceptance.

Well.. see you - Lanyjé

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Mar 3rd 2004 at 09:37:02 AM
Name:  

Stephen Arnason

Comments:  

@Rodrigo, I am at my school right now with time off and i just downloaded your minesweeper cloen onto the computer. however, when i try to play it says that msvbvm60.dll is missing so it can't run (it is on windows 98 i believe). for some reason, even after installing the msvbvm50.exe from your website it doesn't work until you downloaad the one with 60 in it (sixty, not to be confused with typo fifty). so yeah, if you could perhaps upload msvbvm60 on your website i would appreciate it.

   
Mar 3rd 2004 at 09:36:12 AM
Name:  

Dave Matson

Comments:  

@Detrusor: Yes, the estimated time has been noticed to be different from the actual time. Hopefully Rodrigo will fix this is his next version.

   
Mar 3rd 2004 at 09:34:11 AM
Name:  

Detrusor

Comments:  

Elmar > OK, it's true... Then rodrigo should add an option to enable that double-clicking on .mvf DIRECTLY read the video in the player...

I just made a 80.9 sec in expert, but the estimated time is 79.96 ??? is this an already-knwown bug ?

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Mar 3rd 2004 at 09:19:49 AM
Name:  

Elmar

Comments:  

@Detrusor: If he changes the video format to avi, we will have the old problem with video editing. On the other hand I agree that it would be more convenient to handle....

   
Mar 3rd 2004 at 09:16:13 AM
Name:  

Dave Matson

Comments:  

Why not use it for the AR??? Its pretty obvious that the game works as well as the original. Besides, the AR works on the honour system anyway. The community just trusts people to submit honest scores, as no screenshots, etc are needed for the AR.

   
Mar 3rd 2004 at 08:45:15 AM
Name:  

Dave Morgan

Comments:  

Ok, now you definitely have to allow it for AR - I'm hideously out of practise (best recent times of 23-88, but havent played much), and I got an 18 on a 34 3bv board, shame I wasn't recording

   
Mar 3rd 2004 at 08:13:05 AM
Name:  

Dave Morgan

Comments:  

I've been using windows this afternoon (yuck ), so I've played the clone for a bit, and as far as the way it plays goes its ready to be accepted for AR times.

I would like to see a couple of features from Sorin's programs though - time to the nearest second during them game, but then display the time to the nearest 100th after the game (the current time to the nearest tength option is off putting). I'd actually rather see the time in the standard MS style format at the top (it would also be good if you could make it look the same, as mentioned before), and the more accurate time at the bottom

The other thing I'd like to see is a click per second count, which as far as I can tell isn't present at the moment

As for being fake-proof, I've not tried to cheat yet, except by downloading the minesweeper memory reader program, which doesn't work with the clone, but gives a message saying it couldnt find minesweeper. That doesn't mean that it wouldn't be easy to convert the memory reader program to convert the clone though (I imagine it would be, but I'm no expert on the w32 api).

On a side note, its interesting to use the memory reader program to see how the board changes when you click on where there should have been a mine with your first click (I'm not convinced that posting about that program is a good idea, but since 2 people have posted links to it before I guess its ok)

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Mar 3rd 2004 at 05:53:59 AM
Name:  

Detrusor

Comments:  

last thing : about the timer...
I think it's less clear than MS' one : the parts of the red numbers are more far (from each other) in your version than in MS's one. I made a 88 which is not as easy to read as MS's is...

I don't know if it's clear, but i hope that you understood me

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Mar 3rd 2004 at 05:42:36 AM
Name:  

Detrusor

Comments:  

Rodrigo > is it possible to convert the video into a .avi file ? Cause i think it's easier to be able to open the video just by double clicking the file, instead of opening first minesweeper clone, and then opening the file... Maybe it's possible to directly play the video (with minesweeper clone) when you double click on the file, but i don't know how. If not possible, can you add such an option ?

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Mar 3rd 2004 at 03:14:45 AM
Name:  

Case

Comments:  

bah crap, really need to be able to edit. figured out why as i was posting... all the squares i open are on borders of open spaces. duh. i suck lol

   
Mar 3rd 2004 at 03:12:53 AM
Name:  

Case

Comments:  

ah playin for a while now, found something strange... sometimes when i die fast the game says i solved 0 3bv and so the estimated time/3bv per sec is 0. Any idea why rodrigo? Playing in normal mode, timer set to start at 0. Screenshot: http://198.37.17.182/minesweeper/bwah.jpg

   
Mar 3rd 2004 at 02:42:11 AM
Name:  

Case

Comments:  

oop i forgot why i originally came to post! My hunt for sub60 is back on, just lost at 54s with 10 squares to clear. BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!!!!

   
Mar 3rd 2004 at 02:39:46 AM
Name:  

Case

Comments:  

@Manu: make sure to download the newest version up now. The lag problem is gone as far as i can tell. Used to slow me down a few secs from lag, but i just played it on the new version and it seems to be perfect.

@Lance: Dont know if i want to be one of the "alternative" players but i do like trying to find holes and cheats (none of which i claim as records!). So far he fixed the only bug i was able to find. Unfortunately, if what David thinks about the human movement mimicking solver is true, there will be little that can be done to prevent cheating by anyone who can program/get one .

@Rodrigo: Your latest version of the clone absolutely rules. So close to the original I cant tell the difference. I think the only thing that really remains before it gets accepted is some of the council ppl taking time out to play it a lot, and someone to test expert/intermediate for patterns/repeat boards.

   
Mar 3rd 2004 at 01:37:48 AM
Name:  

Manu

Comments:  

I've tried to play with Rodrigo's clone last night, and here is what I think :
The most annoying thing is that there is a delay after each click, a bit like when I used Camtasia with "true colors" ( maybe is it just me ?? )
I love Rodrigo's idea to add a table with all 10 best times and 3BV/sec ratios for each level. It would be even better to add ( at least for the best times and 3BV/sec ratios ) an automatically saved video, as someone suggested. Why not adding also a link in the "High score windows" directly to the videos of the games, and another link to a stats windows including 3BV, number of clicks, etc...
Would it be possible to personnalise the videos ? I mean that what is written in the congratulations box when you finish your best game could be integrated directly on the video, to avoid that other people use your own vids ( not that anybody will ever be interested in MY videos but... )
I would also appreciate the stats numbers to be bigger, I remember someone already mentionned that. And, I don't know if I am the only one to do that, but after each good game, I'm used to have a look on the vid to see what is the number of mines unflagged at the end of the game ( in my case it can go to 20 to 70 on an expert game !! ). It would be great if it could be integrated to the stats, or maybe the mine counter could NOT go directly to "99" after the last click.
Well, suggestions are easy to make, but I guess that it can be complicated to change all that in the next version !
What do you think of all that guys ?

   
Mar 2nd 2004 at 10:00:59 PM
Name:  

Lance

Best expert:  

56

Best intermediate:  

13

Best beginner:  

1

Comments:  

Ok, this is a good start! I'm glad to see the conversation and discussion is moving along. I think more people need to play it, if they haven't already, even if they don't plan on using it, so we can have more people with informed opinions (a big thanks to the posters thus far, having tested it and compared it to the original).

Good questions have been raised: 1) for the programers out there, has anyone tried to decompile the clone? Tried to use the board predicting program that is available on the net? 2) for the cheaters out there, umm, I mean, for those people who enjoy alternative ways of achieving records: have you tried to cheat on the clone? have you succeeded? Obviously this question goes to everyone out there who is hammering at the clone to find holes in order to help the community , as well as those who do it only for personal advancement . No need to distinguish yourself when you post. You can even post anonymously if you so choose, just do it for the betterment of the game, ok?

Alright, we have good progress so far, let's keep it going! Happy sweeping, all!

Lance

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Mar 2nd 2004 at 06:14:54 PM
Name:  

Rodrigo

Comments:  

@Stephen, Marko and Dave: That's true! When I did this feature, I didn't know Sorin's counter very well yet. I just took a look at it and guessed - that's true, I didn't check - that it was showing the time as if it started at zero. At the time, I thought that everybody was used with the estimated time to be shown this way. Now I decided to download it, got my hand calculator and checked: that's true, Sorin's estimated time really starts at one! I will fix it quickly in the next version, as it is very simple: just have to add 1!

By the way, I am very happy for seeing that my clone is beeing well accepted by the community. But I believe it is getting nice because of all the help from you guys! That was really my intention when I started to build the game: to make it as cheatproof as possible. But I was mostly concerned about cheating videos. Now I can see something that I didn't even imagine. That my program can be useful to avoid pre-knowledge of the boards! Nice!

I am not having a single minute for doing updates this week, and I am hardly checking my e-mails. But I am plannig to add two "top-ten" lists in the history window: one for the best times and one for the highest 3BV/s values reached. This would be shown for each level, beg, int and exp. What do you think? Ah, and to correct the estimated time, of course!

About accepting its scores to the AR, I can't say too much! My vote is... YES, of course! But I agree that I am out of the votation. But I sincerely believe that times reached using it can be compared to times reached using MS Minesweeper. It was also my intention when doing it. But I would like to suggest that both scores with Winmine or with my clone should be accepted, and not only with one of them. At least as an initial decision. If it is decided to accept times from my clone only, then there must be a kind of "transition", anyway. But I don't like this idea very much. I think that my clone and Winmine should be always side by side. Each player chooses wich one to use.

But I don't see any problem with using it also for the Best-Ever. At least at first sight. As you can see, I am far from beeing in any of these lists. My scores can make most of you laugh, but I think I can give my opinion anyway.

I totally agree with Lance when he says that there must exist a good discussion about this subject, until a probable poll near the next weekend. I believe it is an important thing that this decision comes from all the community. It is good also to get your opinions about what else to add to the program, what changes to be made, etc.

Thanks a lot, people!
Rodrigo.

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Mar 2nd 2004 at 04:54:41 PM
Name:  

Stephen

Best expert:  

66

Best intermediate:  

18

Best beginner:  

2

Comments:  

The time is indeed off by a second, i guess the time that the 3bv/s counter starts at zero, while the red timer starts at 1. maybe this is something to fix, Rodrigo?

   
Mar 2nd 2004 at 04:19:49 PM
Name:  

Stephen Arnason

Best intermediate:  

18

Comments:  

finally broke the record by 1 second... however i didn't record it (darn it). have a screen shot though, as well as a .mrb (minesweeper reader file)

   
Mar 2nd 2004 at 03:20:41 PM
Name:  

Marko Jeznik

Comments:  

@Dave: the est. time is always off by one second, at least on my computer, and I figured it's because the timer starts at 1.00s... Feel free to correct me, anyone.

   
Mar 2nd 2004 at 02:41:17 PM
Name:  

Dave Matson

Best expert:  

99

Best intermediate:  

29

Best beginner:  

4

Comments:  

First of all, I have to say that I love the clone. I think that the pros for the program far outweigh the cons. (Especially since the new skins!) It plays really smoothly, in fact, I can't even tell the difference between the clone and the real thing! Also, there is less of a lag at the end of a game, before you actually find out that you screwed up. (In comparison to 0.54 beta).

I do have a question to all who have used the clone. Once you have finished a game, do you notice that your real time in the top-right is never the same as your estimated time? Is it just my computer, or is this part of the program?

By the way, I think it was Lance that wanted to see what everyone thought about using the clone in the AR and for world records. (Not that I'll ever get a world record...) I think that for the time being, we should at least allow it for the AR. It seems that most of the obvious bugs have been worked out. As for world records, it's a tough call. We'll have to decide if we'll ONLY accept winmine, ONLY accept the clone, or accept both. The choice of those three lies in the purpose of the clone. One of the main purposes of the clone is to help get rid of cheating. If the clone actually does what it says it does, then it sounds like using the clone is the only way to get rid of cheating. (What happened to the good old days?) If the purpose of the clone is just a toy to have fun with the cheat mode, then there is no purpose to accepting these scores for world records.

In any case, its a tough decision. If using the clone is the only way to ensure that no one cheats, then the clone should be the only accepted game. It seems that there are more people coming around saying that they've tied or broken the world record. (Not to mention any names.) If we decide to only accept times reached on the clone, then we ONLY accept times reached on the clone. That's it. Then there is no disputing any score, no matter how silly it is. (most of the game NF, the rest flagging, ahem.)

There are likely many people out there that would like to argue some of the points mentioned above, which is good. I agree with Lance, and think that much discussion has to happen in order to help us reach an agreement.

   
Mar 2nd 2004 at 01:49:58 PM
Name:  

Stephan

Comments:  

@Detrusor: Congratulations. If you set the speed bar in a way that its position is between the two e's of speed, the time is almost competitive to real time.

   
Mar 2nd 2004 at 11:43:06 AM
Name:  

Dave Morgan

Comments:  

Yes, I am using linux - supposedly vb apps can be run with linux's windows emulator, though I haven't managed to get them to yet, and even if I did there's no guarantee that the clone would work (winmine runs ok, Sorin's programs load but don't run properly)

I have no objection to Rodrigo's clone being allowed, but I don't think it should be the only version allowed (except maybe for the very fastest times), because it will discourage new players from joining the community and makes us seem too cliquey

Of course, I've not tested Rodrigo's version, so whether or not its good enough I don't know - has anyone tried to cheat with it, or tried to disassemble it? Someone posted a link to a program that could reveal the mines before the game was played so that you knew where they were when you did play, is Rodrigo's clone subject to this?

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Mar 2nd 2004 at 11:26:55 AM
Name:  

Marko Jeznik

Best expert:  

94

Best intermediate:  

26

Best beginner:  

3

Comments:  

Ok, here we go then... As you can see I'm a little nervous, public speech was never a friend of mine... *cough* I like the clone very much. With the latest version I can't even tell whether I'm playing the MS version or the clone. None of my records were achieved with the clone yet (don't laugh, i know i'm slow), but I can prove my times with recordings of 96, 27 and 3 using the clone. So... I'm all for it. If a tiny little thing or two get fixed.

Pro :
- built-in replay system
- fresh boards, same chances for everyone
- accurate timer
- no advantage over the original version considering gameplay
- no need to get used to a new skin as both 'official' ones are included
Con :
- this one's rather silly, but it still bothers me... it's that the game is still 'beta'... i think it's about time for a final version. There's no way of releasing the perfect game anyway. It can still be patched later, when/if bugs are discovered
- there's no way of telling which version was used to record the video... could cause problems, but shouldn't be hard to fix

I'd also suggest, if i may, to have the clone save videos of high-score games automatically, so nobody can say he/she forgot to save. And in legal mode, it should always be set to 'record video', with no option to disable that.

The cons aren't really that important and I wouldn't mind even if the game was accepted as it is now. Just trying to suggest what could still be improved.

*ducks to avoid the tomato and makes room for the next*

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Mar 2nd 2004 at 10:28:48 AM
Name:  

Lance

Best expert:  

56

Best intermediate:  

13

Best beginner:  

1

Comments:  

I have been playing minesweeper for 9 years, and seriously playing for 4-5 years, and I can say that I have never recognized a board once I have begun playing it. I save all of my sub-20 boards, but never make videos (though this may change with the ease of Rodrigo's game). I don't know how people recognize boards they have already played. I wish people would just play the game and not look for every little way to pull ahead. Personally, I don't accept the 7, 8, 9 sec boards, and am thoroughly undecided about Matt's 10. I don't accept any other 10. I think 11 is most likely the only "honest" intermediate record. I find it annoying that people would go out of their way to find a single board on which to get a record, even if they play all of the games in between, they are actively hunting for one (or a few) board(s). I hope Rodrigo's clone will solve this issue.

Right now I propose that we discuss the pro's and con's of accepting his clone for offical record recognition and for the AR (still accepting the winmine version, but giving more trust to the clone's records). What are people's opinions regarding this? I feel the clone is very solid and very extensive and inclusive. I think that new players won't have trouble transitioning to this program if they want their records to be trusted. Discuss, please!!!

@Dave: Rodrigo's clone should work for your computer (oops, are you the one who said you run Linux or Unix or something? That's the only thing that might cause a problem, I guess. I'm a Linux/Unix dummy ). If you do use Windows, check out the files on his site that may need to be downloaded and placed in various directories, or installed. Follow the directions and it will work fine.

I will post a poll on the addicts site AFTER there has been some useful discussion of whether or not to accept the clone. I hope to post such a poll on Friday or Saturday. Regardless, I would notify everyone here when that poll has been created. Happy sweeping, all

Lance

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Mar 2nd 2004 at 10:25:51 AM
Name:  

Detrusor

Best expert:  

73 > 72 !!

Comments:  

I just broke my expert record on a 131 3BV board... But i only started Sorin's recorder, and not Camtasia. I wanted to record with camtasia the video provided by Sorin's player with my .txt, but the speed isn't correct... How can I do to record with Camtasia, and with the correct speed ? Is there any option that I did not notice ?

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Mar 2nd 2004 at 05:46:08 AM
Name:  

Kimmo

Comments:  

Dennis, you're right, thats quite a problem. But I can't think of anything else that would make sense.
Lucky me I dont play intermediate any more.

   
Mar 2nd 2004 at 03:45:30 AM
Name:  

Dave Morgan

Comments:  

Whilst I see while people have a problem with people memorizing boards, to me it seems the same as memorizing patterns in the game, and in the same way that some people know when to expect a dream board, I often know/guess what numbers are going to be revealed while I'm playing (when I'm wrong that usuaslly makes me lose, but when I'm right it probably saves time)

I never recognise boards when I play - my first 16 was on a board I'd previously got an 18 on, and I didn't realise until a few months later. There's one board that I got 3 18s on and recognised it the second and third times, just because it was the best time I had on video so I'd watched it a few times, but I lost as much time in thinking "is this that board?" as I gained in knowing where the mines where (though trying to remember isn't always as fast as just playing normally)

I would object to only allowing times done on Rodrigo's clone, because I can't run it

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Mar 2nd 2004 at 03:33:07 AM
Name:  

Elmar

Comments:  

@Dennis: I think you meant "@Kimmo:". Besides that, I fully agree.

   
Mar 2nd 2004 at 02:56:22 AM
Name:  

Dennis Lütken

Comments:  

@Manu: I see a big problem there! If we were only to accept times achieved on int boards for which we had no previous knowledge we would rule out a whole bunch of really nice boards which are ones usually great for making new records. Thus, the more you play the less your chance will be of getting a new record because you'll start recognising MANY of the sub-40 3bv boards! How can you make sure if people have gotten a certain board before and thus knew it? I don't think you can. The only solution as I see it is to only accept scores done on Rodrigo's clone once we all agree that his clone is good enough!

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Mar 2nd 2004 at 02:49:08 AM
Name:  

Daniele

Comments:  

Strange period..i have too many things in my head (university...) and i can't obtain good times...uff...

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Mar 2nd 2004 at 01:19:09 AM
Name:  

Stevan

Comments:  

Completely agree with you Kimmo...

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Mar 2nd 2004 at 12:33:11 AM
Name:  

Kimmo

Comments:  

My opinion is simply this: if a person knows where mines on certain board are going to be, the time shouldn't be accepted. This way the int world record should be 11(?). Times made with memorizing or whatever are just...

   
Mar 1st 2004 at 11:15:33 PM
Name:  

David Barry

Comments:  

I didn't know that Case, and I guess that changes things. I think now I'm more inclined to say that 11 should be the accepted record.

   
Mar 1st 2004 at 04:57:48 PM
Name:  

Case

Comments:  

David, i didn't just click F2 to get the boards i wanted. I only knew the order of a few "dreamboards" in different spots in the 2 cycles(boards with a 3bv in the 20s or 30s). I started every game from the same start position, and played every game that came up. The only way I knew the board was the one i wanted was after i started and recognized the opening layout. I'm not trying to claim the records or anything, but i dont see much difference between memorizing 1 dreamboard and playing every game expecting that layout as opposed to memorizing several dreamboard layouts in a cycle. They played each game with 1 board in mind and so did I, I was just able to repeat it more frequently because I knew more boards.

   
Mar 1st 2004 at 04:12:56 PM
Name:  

Dion

Comments:  

Haha, nice contradiction there Stevan. Since the majority of your 41 was done in pure NF style, I believe you just gave yourself away.

   
Mar 1st 2004 at 04:10:11 PM
Name:  

Manu

Comments:  

Stevan : should I be ashamed of my scores ? I don't think so, even if I will probably never sub-50 ( unless I can make 25 lucky clicks in a single game one day... ). Unfortunately the expert-statistician that you are know that it is more than unlikely, isnt it ?
PS : I didn't know that I was a "hard NF-er", will you explain me what it means exactly ?

   
Mar 1st 2004 at 02:23:01 PM
Name:  

David Barry

Comments:  

Sorry, Case. I think with Roland, at least, he didn't just do click-F2 all day through the right cycle (or write a program to do it for him). He played other boards, and though he got the dreamboard very often (several times in a month, I think), I think his play was legitimate.

   
Mar 1st 2004 at 01:28:39 PM
Name:  

Stevan

Comments:  

Manu, as you are hard NF-er, you shoult really try it, maybe you go sub40 that way

Wait a minute, you arent still sub50?!? OK, then to go sub50

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Mar 1st 2004 at 01:24:32 PM
Name:  

Elmar

Comments:  

Manu: Bon style!

   
Mar 1st 2004 at 12:27:57 PM
Name:  

Manu

Best expert:  

53

Best intermediate:  

12

Best beginner:  

1

Comments:  

Jon : Stevan is right when he's saying : "right mixture of flagging is the best way to get good times".
Do like he showed us on his 41-vid : play NF during the first 27 seconds and then put 12 flags in the last 14 seconds ( with several completely useless ones if possible : it may bring your efficiency down to around 1.5 BV/sec in the last third of the game, but it worth it if you want to hope for a new WR ).

   
Mar 1st 2004 at 12:01:39 PM
Name:  

Case

Best expert:  

61

Best intermediate:  

13

Best beginner:  

1

Comments:  

aw, barry left out the 8s,9s, and 10s i posted after roland and steffen got sub-10s to show that intermediate is way too easy to do with cycle knowledge. Someone even had a 7s intermediate if i remember right, but i cant recall who?

ah... someday they will be posting "the race to sub-40"

   
Mar 1st 2004 at 11:24:19 AM
Name:  

Stevan

Comments:  

@Stephan : was thinkinh about WC, I read nice fantasy story by Matt on his "inthehalloffame" site

Is it just a coincidence or not, I was thinking many times about it in the same way as Matt did, only on expert board not on int

@Jon S : forget NF, right mixture of flagging is the best way to get good times, if there wouldnt be doubleclick feature it would be better to go NF, but this way flagging is muuuuch better

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Mar 1st 2004 at 07:51:19 AM
Name:  

Stephan

Comments:  

Lance, I wish I had met many sweepers in reality, but unfortunately, I only met Christoph Marx so far. I chatted a lot with some others, that's why I think I know them in real, and I have at least 20 pictures of famous sweepers, but I still would look forward to meeting several players at some world championship or anything similar.

   
Mar 1st 2004 at 07:28:04 AM
Name:  

Hopsing

Best expert:  

119

Best intermediate:  

36

Best beginner:  

3

Comments:  

Hi
where can I read the essay you were talking about?
Bye
Hopsing

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Mar 1st 2004 at 05:25:24 AM
Name:  

Manu

Comments:  

I totally agree with your analysis, Jon ! Well said !

   
Mar 1st 2004 at 04:25:20 AM
Name:  

Jon S

Best expert:  

2,69 3BV/sec

Comments:  

I just looked briefly at the web site with colon-rules. I was totally amazed that it's allowed to put that much commas into a single sentence in the way that was done (Moby Dick). I still have a lot to learn then.
Anyhow, I improved to 2,69 3BV/sec on expert. I was quite efficient with "only" 3,10 clicks/sec. I have had 3,32 clicks/sec once. Anyway, I think that flaggers gets high 3BV/s more easily than non-flaggers. If the board has a high 3BV, a single double-click will often remove 2-3 3BV of the board because there are so few openings. There is not very surprising that the best 3BV/s comes on boards with a high 3BV, since you seldom have to move far between each click. Another aspect is that a sudden opening might be unexpected, and you'll need some time to figure out where to click next.
The non-flagging tecnique is definitely better than the "flag everything"-tecnique on boards with low 3BV and few openings. Maybe a non-flagger can be able to do a really nice expert board (ca. 100 3BV) in about 120 clicks. The only way to beat that is to flag a few strategically placed mines.
My point is that heavy flaggers can probably get a fairly good time on just about any board, while non-flaggers needs few openings and low 3BV to get a good time. I believe that the low 40's is absolutely reachable for a non-flagger if he just manage to play at his best when that nice board finally pops up.

BTW: I was wrong in my last post. I missed that I had a single 69 between my 6th 64 and my 2nd 56. The next time I'm missing is 62.

   
Feb 29th 2004 at 05:06:23 PM
Name:  

Stevan

Comments:  

OK, I'm studying physics, too, so I understand you

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Feb 29th 2004 at 02:52:07 PM
Name:  

David Barry

Comments:  

Stevan, it doesn't matter to me how you announced yourself here. Your 41 video looks like it was done by a solver (a very well programmed solver, but a solver nonetheless), until the last few seconds when you took over yourself. Your 44 looks like it was done by a human. I will not retract my comments unless you can convince me otherwise.

   
Feb 29th 2004 at 02:09:08 PM
Name:  

Lance Votroubek

Best expert:  

56

Best intermediate:  

13

Best beginner:  

1

Comments:  

Rodrigo,
I know that several people who visit this website have actually met in person some of the other players. If I remember correctly, Lasse has met a few players, Owen Fox has met one or two, Stephan has met a couple, I think. Personally, I live 5-10 miles from Dan Cerveny, but we have never met, as per his preference, which I respect. I think many people find it fun to meet other players, if they happen to be in the region. Maybe someday if I am travelling I will do the same. Happy sweeping, all!

Lance

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Feb 29th 2004 at 11:21:55 AM
Name:  

Stevan

Comments:  

I've seen David mentioned me in biography, but its interesting that noone has responded to this I wrote about month ago :

Name:
Stevan

Comments:
Stephen have you seen my 44exp and 12int vids I posted here?!?

Why would someone who can do "real" 44 post "unreal" 41?!?

To throw "cheatingshadow" on himself?!?

Doh...

Just answer me that question, why would thief enter a house loudly if he can do it quiet?!?

And you know that mines timer is little slower, and my computer HDD (maybe) swapped in background cause of some surveillance programs (camera watching and so on)... so thats it, it sounds pretty unbelievable for many, so if you dont want accept it, no problem, I've said I can go and I WILL go sub40, sooner or later, see ya

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Feb 29th 2004 at 10:58:00 AM
Name:  

Rodrigo

Comments:  

After reading this amazing essay, some questions came up to my mind... and I really wish I was interested about minesweeper 2 or 3 years ago... I would love to watch all the competition mentioned! It would be exciting!

This made me curious about something... how many of you guys know personally each other? If so, how did you meet each other? There are people from several countries posting in this Guestbook, and I wonder if some here are "neighbours".

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Feb 29th 2004 at 09:26:16 AM
Name:  

Christian Mengelkoch

Best expert:  

75

Best intermediate:  

22

Best beginner:  

2

Comments:  

I've tried to send you mails with my screenshots various times, but under "thefinerminer@hotmail.com" I keep getting delivery failure messages. What's the problem with your address?

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Feb 29th 2004 at 08:18:00 AM
Name:  

Stephan

Comments:  

Really impressive listing of history, David!

   
Feb 29th 2004 at 03:55:52 AM
Name:  

Dion

Comments:  

Very nice essay Barry, it gives me an idea of the atmosphere back then and what I have missed.

   
Feb 29th 2004 at 02:59:57 AM
Name:  

Manu

Comments:  

Thanks David for the nice essay you wrote ( and Georgi for mentionning it... )
I've learned a lot of interesting details !

   
Feb 28th 2004 at 09:40:05 PM
Name:  

RyanTurk

Best expert:  

82->75!!!

Best intermediate:  

19

Best beginner:  

2

Comments:  

haha!!!!!!! I've finally broken 100 total!!!!!

   
Feb 28th 2004 at 01:37:39 PM
Name:  

Georgi

Comments:  

David Barry's profile at AR brought me back to the romantic times of the game and this Guest book....
Nice one David!

   
Feb 28th 2004 at 12:45:23 PM
Name:  

Dan

Comments:  

Active Ranking has been updated.

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Feb 28th 2004 at 10:44:05 AM
Name:  

damien

Comments:  

@EasyGijs: elastomania is fantastic...i used to compete with some other guys last year...best time level one is 15:23...curious what some of your tops are for the other levels.

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Feb 28th 2004 at 09:09:35 AM
Name:  

Rodrigo

Comments:  

Manu: My program uses the CPU's internal clock to show the timer. So, it is precisely accurate and has no delay.

I would like to add that the previous release had problems when changing skins simultaneously with watching a video. A new version, the 0.63 beta, is already released with this problem corrected.

    Website Website    
Feb 28th 2004 at 05:54:42 AM
Name:  

EasyGijs

Best expert:  

154 even my dad is better

Best intermediate:  

37 made it today and started watching at the internet

Best beginner:  

3

Comments:  

omg i watched those videos and they are sick. I never use doublemousebutton but neither i place bombs. I watched yuor tips and i might give it a try. Good luck to you all and if you are bored playing minesweeper, give elastomania a try. Also very basic game where you want to make the best time you can think of.

   
Feb 28th 2004 at 02:56:00 AM
Name:  

Manu

Comments:  

Rodrigo : Is the time of your clone going exactly at the same speed than the "normal time" ?

   


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